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Topic: Paladins???? Stinkers!!! (Read 1926 times) |
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Re: Change Paladins name to Stinkers, or improve t
« Reply #20 on: 04/05/03 at 20:20:33 » |
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I am training what is currently a level 16 pally and playing a level 30, without alts.
I am not saying that there is nothing that needs tweaking on them I simply disagree with what some people are saying when they continue to contradict themselves. That guy just said that they may be better than any other class one on one but insists they suck... and the logic in this is?
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Defiant
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Re: Change Paladins name to Stinkers, or improve t
« Reply #21 on: 04/06/03 at 06:34:56 » |
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Paladins don't need changing for gods sake.
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Dwaerkyn
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Re: Change Paladins name to Stinkers, or improve t
« Reply #22 on: 05/05/03 at 23:41:48 » |
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Umm what about for the pallies sake.
In a mosh, you'd never see a pally win.
Let's give a pally from two prospectives:
Someone is training a level 25 pally in the barracks, escorted by a level 28 theif and a level 20 fighter.
A pking party comes along, consisting of a level 25 dwarf theif, a level 22 rangers and a level 28 cleric.
First the dwarf and ranger assault the theif, while the cleric casts a wrath of the gods. and enhances them.
The pally heals the theif up, using all but one of his stamina, which he uses to 'holy speed' himself.
The theif and fighter assault the ranger, but he gets healed up by the cleric.
The dwarf and ranger assault the theif again, this time assisted by the cleric and his wrath of the gods and an attack or two. Killing the thief.
The pally does his champ str on himself and assaults the cleric, and ditto with the fighter, the cleric heals himself up.
All three assault the pally, killing him, the theif should be dead very, very soon.
The pally doesn't have the ability to heal a full round of damage, and can't do enough damage to one-round anybody.
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newb
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Re: Change Paladins name to Stinkers, or improve t
« Reply #23 on: 05/05/03 at 23:53:58 » |
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Is this a made up situation? If not, then the pally just has no clue how to use his crits. Well, either way he has no clue how to use his crits.
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heh
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alicia
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Re: Change Paladins name to Stinkers, or improve t
« Reply #24 on: 05/06/03 at 18:37:42 » |
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OK pally can bash up any class in 1v1 (xept maybe clerics) but who cares? The only time a pally will be 1 on 1 in the game is when testing your crits in the clan arena. Now lets compare the pally in a real situation, when both sides have multiple crits.
Champs strength - righteous uses less stam and improves hit chance
Aid - cleric is better
Fighting - we will exclude the csotw coz its soo expensive, comparing pallys with all other classes:
using holyspeed, expect pally to hit 4/5 times with base 25 weapon (RB)
fighter usually hits 5/6 times with 25 weapon (hally) or 29 (bot), not counting the damage bonus to fighters, which pushes it up more
ranger (assume hling with dexies) hits 4/5 times with effective base 63 weapon
theif hits 3-4/5 times with effective base 54 weapon (depending on class)
zerker hits 4/6 times with effective base 75 weapon (hally) or base 87 weapon (bot)
Unsure about druids but they can spell themselves up an insane amount, have 2 first choice attacks and hare considarable harder than a pally
Mages and clerics should be doing something other than staffing people.
So, presuming the mage is beaming and the cleric healing, it is easy to see who the weakest link is in the fight...
Where pallys are very useful is on the longer areas (desert, mountains, chronos ect) as they can fight and be used as spare healer in case your cleric eats it in the middle of nowhere, with their low hp clerics are often the first to do so. And in low level areas, where they can out heal the cleric and are far more useful (ive completed the sewage smithy area with just a pally and a druid a bit ago)
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Insomnia
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Re: Change Paladins name to Stinkers, or improve t
« Reply #25 on: 05/07/03 at 21:04:40 » |
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Paladins are just fine as they are, and they definately don't need any new weapons. Blade of Time has 29 b-dmg and aren't impossible to get anymore. Rose Blade has as high b-dmg as fighters' strongest weapon, which is more than enough.
After that aid was changed slightly they became one of the most balanced classes in game. Don't change anything!
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Fair enough.
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alicia
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Re: Change Paladins name to Stinkers, or improve t
« Reply #26 on: 05/08/03 at 01:42:00 » |
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Pile:
I am not saying that there is nothing that needs tweaking on them I simply disagree with what some people are saying when they continue to contradict themselves. That guy just said that they may be better than any other class one on one but insists they suck... and the logic in this is?
The logic is - who cares about one on ones the only time that happens is when testing your own/close friends crist in clan arena.
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Re: Change Paladins name to Stinkers, or improve t
« Reply #27 on: 05/10/03 at 17:30:16 » |
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Well in reply, I think that is a preposterous statement. If you say, “whom cares about one-on-one situations” how do you suggest classes can possibly be balanced from their effectiveness in unbalanced situations? The point of the single Player vs. player is that if a paladin is fairly matched to other classes then they are pretty much going to be balanced in game. Plus, you have already said they are great in the ‘adventure’ type situations. Now the reason that you think paladins suck in these situations simply lies in the fact that the overall odds probably aren’t balanced, this isn’t the paladin’s fault. Time after time people overlook the effects of stats and equipment, you take a crappy pally against some decked 5-stat crits and you’re never going to be onto a winner.
Without trying to sound like a b****, but if you’re experience of paladins lies entirely with Nelly_Nell, it's worth remembering that it's at a bit of a disadvantage in terms of stats.
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Rappy_Ninja
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Re: Change Paladins name to Stinkers, or improve t
« Reply #28 on: 05/10/03 at 19:51:41 » |
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on 04/05/03 at 19:17:10, Dwaerkyn wrote:Paladins are NOT fine, they may be better then any other classes one on one.
What are paladins supposed to be, clerics with less spells and more fighting, but unfortunately they get less healing and are not good at fighting at all. Clerics are better at EVERYTHING but fighting, but a cleric can heal for 100 (divine restoration) I admit that I was a little angry at my paladin being stinky and probably overexaggerated some of my suggestions.
My theory.
There are REALLY 4 classes, Mage, Fighter, Cleric, Theif
Mage + Cleric = Druid
Cleric + Fighter = Paladin
Theif + Fighter = Berserker, Ranger
Thats pretty close to what they are eh?
Now lets loook at the cleric + fighter
Now the cleric addition is fine, Paladins have a good numbers of spells, but they stink ar fighting.
I've had a level 24 paladin, so I admit I don't really know what an archie paladin is like. But I've beat level 28 paladins with my level twenty five theif. It was done slyly I'll admit it. I attacked with my magma knife thrice, so the pally didn't think It would need to heal so much just yet. He attacked me, then next round I do a big stamina assassinate *grins evilly*
Is that stinky or what?
I was down to 30 hp at the end.
I guarentee you, do everything my post said and pallies will defeat everyone.
How about just give pallies their third and fourth and fifth stamina sooner, and at level 28 give them a Lance of Justice, with 26 base damage and a tiny mana leech.
How does that sound?
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only a n00b pally would fall for that thief trick
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Horror
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Re: Change Paladins name to Stinkers, or improve t
« Reply #29 on: 05/10/03 at 20:02:01 » |
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on 05/05/03 at 23:41:48, Dwaerkyn wrote:Umm what about for the pallies sake.
In a mosh, you'd never see a pally win.
Let's give a pally from two prospectives:
Someone is training a level 25 pally in the barracks, escorted by a level 28 theif and a level 20 fighter.
A pking party comes along, consisting of a level 25 dwarf theif, a level 22 rangers and a level 28 cleric.
First the dwarf and ranger assault the theif, while the cleric casts a wrath of the gods. and enhances them.
The pally heals the theif up, using all but one of his stamina, which he uses to 'holy speed' himself.
The theif and fighter assault the ranger, but he gets healed up by the cleric.
The dwarf and ranger assault the theif again, this time assisted by the cleric and his wrath of the gods and an attack or two. Killing the thief.
The pally does his champ str on himself and assaults the cleric, and ditto with the fighter, the cleric heals himself up.
All three assault the pally, killing him, the theif should be dead very, very soon.
The pally doesn't have the ability to heal a full round of damage, and can't do enough damage to one-round anybody.
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Ok, don't me such a moron and create situations that will almost never happen. Your situation is just a load of bs, the second party is way more powerful than the first.. the clerics higher level than the paladin, so its going to be far better.. both the thief and ranger are still good enough to take out the level 28 thief, 25 pally and 20 fighter, as they'd be fully spelled up.
Nobody fights like that.. except a total newb, the pally would use his stam to heal himself as he gets hit.. simple isn't it? Get an arch pally and duel every class in the game, you will win on all except possibly thief and druid (druids are over powered)
Paladins are fine, you just can't use them.
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alicia
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Re: Change Paladins name to Stinkers, or improve t
« Reply #30 on: 05/11/03 at 00:29:24 » |
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**** The point of the single Player vs. player is that if a paladin is fairly matched to other classes then they are pretty much going to be balanced in game. ****
As ive sed before, my l27 dwarf zerker (perfect in everything exept charisma) was beaten by a l24 pally in a clan arena. You dont see that same l24 pally one clicking perfect archie fighters and zerkers though?
Oh, and nelly_nell is 2 off perfect fighting stats (1 in str, 1 in dex).. i usually keep him on the airship ladder nowadays for desert runs. I have two lower level pallys since at low lvls pallys heal double what clerics do, just like how druids spell better than mages.
If you want, put it this way. 2 people in alt duel, both equally skilled experts. One has a cleric and 4 rangers, one had a cleric 3 rangers and a pally (all perfect l30's). The pally guy will lose most of the time.
What i think they need is something that cant be bettered by fighters or clerics, and id say give em 55 armour chestplate
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Pile
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Re: Change Paladins name to Stinkers, or improve t
« Reply #31 on: 05/11/03 at 01:23:24 » |
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Hmm Nelly_nell’s charisma sucks too if I remember correctly (could be wrong though been a while since I owned it) and 18 strength and 18 dex does make a fair bit of difference in my opinion.
Firstly, one person has 5 crits and the other 4 lol, but I’m sure that was a typo and you meant them to be equal. In my opinion that’s still not a completely balanced situation for the paladin because you are compromising it by having to use it as a cleric. You could have said 2 rangers, a pally and a cleric for instance. But anyways, I think the winner of that fight would pretty much lie in the person who has the best tactics, such as saving stamina and hitting in bursts on single crits etc, or simply who gets lucky with the lag.
A paladin isn’t meant for one clicking; that’s why so many people think they suck, simply because you can’t round something. In my opinion paladins are great, their beauty lies in a tactical, healing fight. A paladin who tries to round someone is probably a dead paladin.
I suggested before a slight armour increase, but 55 – is that a typo? Either way I think they are pretty much balanced, but it’s just my opinion.
EDIT: Sorry, I completely read that wrong – you had said a cleric, 3 rangers and a pally. I still personally feel that with these numbers of crits it would come down to who used them best though.
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Horror
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Re: Change Paladins name to Stinkers, or improve t
« Reply #32 on: 05/11/03 at 09:42:20 » |
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Why don't you people get it? Paladings aren't supposed to heal like clerics, therefore saying they suck because there not as good as clerics is a load of nuts. Paladings are extremely good and will win almost every FAIR fight they have.
PALADINS ARE FINE!
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alicia
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Re: Change Paladins name to Stinkers, or improve t
« Reply #33 on: 05/15/03 at 23:48:02 » |
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Yea nelly_nell has low charisma.. but he can still win 1v1s pretty easily
** or who gets lucky with the lag
see my post in discussion about lag
Pallys dont need to be able to one click, true, they just need something that makes them better at something. Yes i did suggest 55 armour, its only 7 better than fighters btw. I presume 'spiked armor' refers to early heavy plate, the kind mercenaries and guards would wear, while paladins, which id presume are holy knights, would get the best armour availible which presumable would be blessed in some way and kept in the best of conditions. Not just a tunic (or a worm hide)
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Dwaerkyn
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Re: Change Paladins name to Stinkers, or improve t
« Reply #34 on: 05/23/03 at 01:41:41 » |
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on 05/11/03 at 09:42:20, Horror wrote:Why don't you people get it? Paladings aren't supposed to heal like clerics, therefore saying they suck because there not as good as clerics is a load of nuts. Paladings are extremely good and will win almost every FAIR fight they have.
PALADINS ARE FINE! |
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It's not the healing rate thats the problem, the healing is fine, its just that they can't hit (even with spells), don't do much damage when they do, and have boring abilities and spells.
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Horror
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Re: Paladins???? Stinkers!!!
« Reply #35 on: 05/23/03 at 16:23:20 » |
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They seem to be able to hit quite easily. I only said their healing is fine beacuse someone mentioned it not being that good. Granted they don't do much damage when they hit, but they do hit quite often. Simpel solution, if you don't like their spells and abilities, don't play them. They hit fine, quite often, and heal for quite a bit. Paladins don't need any work imo.
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Dwaerkyn
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Re: Paladins???? Stinkers!!!
« Reply #36 on: 05/24/03 at 03:24:30 » |
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They don't hit good. I figure my level 24 pally hits about 50 or 60% of the time at orc caves with spells, thats pretty bad.
I guess he can heal to spend more time there, that sorta makes up for it.
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Dwaerkyn
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Re: Paladins???? Stinkers!!!
« Reply #37 on: 05/24/03 at 03:41:57 » |
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Also, they're healing does maybe 70 damage at top levels, thats about enough to heal themselfs for 210 in one round.
Vs a ranger.
Pally
Attacking
Spell
Spell
Miss
40
65
Ranger
Rapid fire
72
63
miss
miss
57 (total 192)
Pally
(heals himself up, takes a full round)
Ranger
Miss
Miss
66
73
82
Pally (heal again)
Goes on like this, pally would maybe fizzle a few times, causing hp to not be full, resulting in death, on the other hand, the ranger might miss a whole round (as they are known to do) causing the pally to be able to attack.
Pretty even?
Yeah one on one its pretty even, though the pally would get some extra stam now and then. Ranger would hypno, and maybe flaming. In the end, however, the pally would win.
Lets see, now in a two-archie, vs two-archie duel.
One Berserker and One Cleric vs A Pally and a ranger.
Pally casts spells on himself (and champ str on ranger), and attacks with stuff left. on the Berserker.
Ranger Hypno's the berserker and cleric, then rapids on the berserker.
Berserker berserkes on the ranger, with the cleric heals once on the berserker, divine lights the ranger, casts spells on himself and berserker taking all stamina. Next round the pally heals the ranger. Ranger rapids on berserker. Then the berserked smites at the ranger, bringing it down to a dangerously low hp cleric heals the berserker twice, and divine lights the ranger. The berserker is able to do above 230 damage, the pallies max healing for one round, eventually killing the ranger. The cleric takes care of healing, pally tried to heal but cant.
The duel is decided.
Pallies should get maybe a stat enhancing weapon with vamparic (str and dex?), and a spells that shields the whole party with +10 armor. Thats all they need. Maybe a little more
Berserker does berserk on first round vs. the ranger.
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Mordakai
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Re: Paladins???? Stinkers!!!
« Reply #38 on: 05/24/03 at 10:07:32 » |
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Your posts are a load of bullnuts. You can't just make up a duel and expect people to listen to it, it has to be REAL. Not to mention the fact that rangers don't hit that amount of damage unless there spelled up, which they wouldn't be otherwise its cheating.
I'm not even going to bother replying to all your other made up duels, as none of them are actually real, and there nothing like a real duel would be.
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Dwaerkyn
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Re: Paladins???? Stinkers!!!
« Reply #39 on: 05/24/03 at 14:46:43 » |
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No, none of them are real, but taking what I know about the classes I can guess. Pallies can heal themselves up in about 3 stamina, which is what they're recharge is, but if they are vs. two, they won't last long.
I know the duels probably wouldn't turn out the way they did, I failed to put in the misses. But still, a ranger + pally vs cleric + berserker? The cleric can heal zerker up pretty quick, and also can stat enhance him so he can do above the pallies max heal. So eventually, they would win.
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