23 replies to this topic

[Mercutio]

On several threads I've seen comments about how "the good book" is not to be taken literally.

Christian Doctrines:
- God is infallible
- The Bible is the word of God

Am I to gather that this supposedly always-right-no-matter-what book is an exaggeration? And if so does this mean God is not to be taken literally?

?

[Raylen]

It's not an exaggeration. Take the creation, for example. The bible says six days for the creation of the world. Now, maybe this means "six days of twenty-four hours each with a break at 4pm for tea" - or maybe it means "six metaphorical God-sized days of millions of years".

Now i won't say it's irrelevant to consider a question like this, but there are some more important questions to answer first:

Why do i have the right to sit around and waste my time playing computer games when people all across the world are dying of starvation or curable diseases?

As you may be able to tell, that particularly is a question that's been playing on my mind recently

If you read the bible (yes, all of it), the one "take-home message" is this:

Actions speak louder than words

God does not care for endless debates about Him and His character. He wants people who are ready and willing to go out into this world and serve those who have less, to stand up for the oppressed, and to fight injustice in every way.

I may post more later, i have to go back to work now, lol

Edited by Raylen, 10 November 2004 - 05:27 PM.

[Mercutio]

...

In NO way whatsoever was that even an attempt at answering anything I just asked.. but ok.. since we don't HAVE to stay on topic, the dinosaur thing.

If anyone would actually READ the damn thing, they would re-evaluate their stance on dinosaurs and such, because the book says that no creature was actually made that wasn't shown to man, as God brought them to man to see what he would name them, etc. etc.

I'm not picking sides or anything.. I'm just curious why so much is over-looked to help a person's arguement...

Edited by Mercutio, 10 November 2004 - 05:44 PM.

[Gaddy]

It being meant to be taken literally, entirely literally, is called Fundamentalism. Fundamentalism is how many people in my town are, it is why I do not consider myself part of a religious group. I just believe in what I believe in, and I don't like being told not to form my own opinion or interpretation. I feel it is simply too much of a demand for conformity, which would be dumb in my opinion.

Muchless, people make a big deal about how to get to Heaven. They say that you only, ONLY, have to have a connection with God (Jesus), which bothers me. I don't think Hitler was going to Heaven weather he prayed and spoke with God every night or not.


Edit- Also realize that there are many different christian sects. They all have different views on certain things. These are simply the way that most christians in my town view things.

Edited by Gaddy, 10 November 2004 - 05:56 PM.

[Deathwish]

He didn't?

He actually challanged God to strike him down... I think he didn't have a relationship with God what so ever.

Edited by Deathwish, 10 November 2004 - 05:57 PM.

[Mercutio]

Then he did have a relationship with God.. just a bad one.

The question I'm really trying to ask is why people put so much stock in what amounts to little more than a collection of nice little bedtime stories. And why do people only use the book to defend their point of view (and usually take everything WAY out of context) when it's painfully obvious that no-one can *EVER* know any of the answers to these questions?

/clap Gaddy

"To believe in God or some other guiding force because someone tells you to is the height of stupidity." -Sophy Burnham

[Someone]

It's meant to be taken literally but I find very very very few people actually do. Surprisingly many of them think they are, but haven't ever taken the time to read what much of it actually says and if they did often realize even they don't live on its every word. Most Christians I know (being raised Christian myself) are brought up thinking certain rules are more valuable than others and some are simply 'overlooked' as if they don't exist or labeled 'outdated' which shows that it isn't taken that literally even when many claim they do. Least those are my thoughts on the matter.

As for why...I have no idea to be honest. That's why I left the church.

Edited by Someone, 10 November 2004 - 06:27 PM.

[Deathwish]

You are born to sin, it is human nature to sin they cannot help it. God doesn't expect the impossible from you only that you strive to be sin free. Jesus died for our sins and some people take that out of context saying that if he did that then I can sin all I want because my sin was forgiven all those years ago. And if you feel these are bedtime stories that is your problem. How did I take my belief in the Bible way out of context there?

Oh plus... I'm not trying to convert you or anything of the likes just stating my oppinion.

[Mercutio]

Not to try to insult anyone, but I have another question:

IF God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and *just*.. why would he make man only watch them fail time and time again? Obviously he knew they were going to turn out to be the crap we are today, and setting up failure is FAR from just.

It's kinda like throwing someone in a lake to watch them drown, and calling yourself a swimming coach.

And Deathwish.. I didn't say (or even hint at) that you personally were taking anything out of context. I meant those who say that dinosaurs existed in those days before humans were made, and that the days were simply longer.. while ignoring the part where it says that God showed man *all* creatures so he could name them.

And it isn't "my problem" if I believe that. As I don't believe in Hell, I have no fear of being sent there for not believing what the bible says. Thus I have no problem regarding that. Perhaps you could use "your opinion" instead of "your problem" to throw a little accuracy in your opinions.

Edited by Mercutio, 10 November 2004 - 06:48 PM.

[Deathwish]

He created us with the ability to choose. In the end it is your choice. Would you rather have been a puppet with no will? And he doesn't abandon us as you stated with your drowning in lake image. When you sin and you ask for forgiveness you will be forgiven. I've always found solitude in my belief and have never felt abandoned.

[Mercutio]

... K.. grasp this concept.

God made Adam and Eve. (You bring someone to a lake.)

God told them NOT to eat the fruit of one particular tree. (You say don't jump in, or you'll drown.)

God KNEW beforehand that they would. (You knew you were going to push them in.)

They did. (You push them.)

God cursed them. (You watch them drown.)

[Deathwish]

God didn't kill them. As he first said he who eats from this tree will die. He showed mercy and offered his own son to die for our sin. Through his death my freedom was bought.

A more interesting question would be. Why do people always need justification for something concerning the christian belief why not question other beliefs?

[Someone]

A more interesting question would be. Why do people always need justification for something concerning the christian belief why not question other beliefs?

I personally do question pretty much all beliefs - hence being an anthropology major and loving learning about all kinds of cultures from Vodou to Australian Aboriginal Dreaming.

[Raylen]

God KNEW beforehand that they would. (You knew you were going to push them in.)

correction - as we have free will, which any self-respecting person does, lol - You knew that they would jump into the lake.

God does not push us into making wrong decisions. If he were to control everything you do, existence would be pointless.

[Mercutio]

/t deathwish ... your own religion is taking criticism, so you want to change the subject... super.

Since you can't seem to grasp what I'm saying.. I'll try this:

God knew we would fail, which is to say that he made us to fail. He knew every aspect of what we would do, how we would do it, and when we would do it. He was just waiting for the trainwreck to occur. No matter what spin you put on it, that is not just. And yes, later on he did offer someone else's life. Wow, what a guy.

Why do I want justification for your beliefs? Because christians insist on broadcasting them far more than any other religion, ignoring the fact that others have a right to believe whatever they want. My problem with christianity is simply that they are either throwing the bible at you trying to convert you, or looking down their noses saying that they're right, and you're wrong, because my almighty book said so. Baaaah.

Christianity is the only religion that tries so hard to make everyone believe that they are right, they ignore their own beliefs whenever it's convenient, because they know they can just ask their god of choice for forgiveness, and it's like it never happened.

So either convince the whole of christianity to tone it down, or explain why it's so vital that we believe what you do.

And I'm not saying that my view is right, I'm saying that everyone, including myself, is wrong. I am convinced now more than ever, the person who stays out of a subject is the most intelligent.

[Deathwish]

Not to try to insult anyone, but I have another question:

I had a question too.. What happened to your not insulting anybody. I don't look down on other people because I'm christian nor do judge them. Judgement doesn't become me.

Not someone elses life but his own son.. You don't seem to grasp the idea of offering your own son for something others did wrong. You also selectively use our beliefs to target us on what is what. And you accuse us of doing that. (using the Bible selectively)

I'll stand up for my belief... I won't back down no matter what you say.

Edited by Deathwish, 10 November 2004 - 07:37 PM.

[Mercutio]

To say you don't judge someone is to be naive.

I'm not christian. Thus you believe you lead a better life than mine. Which amounts to you thinking you are better than me on that level.

Judgement is human nature. All are victim to it. Just because you don't take an extreme view one way or the other doesn't mean you don't feel that way.

Once again, you're being selective.

Jesus ***CHOSE*** to die for others, you said yourself that all have free will.

I'm not out to change your way of thinking, I just want to know why you feel the way you do. And so far you give me nothing. Thanks.

Edited by Mercutio, 10 November 2004 - 07:40 PM.

[Deathwish]

Jesus didn't choose to die he did what his father wanted. He asked his father many times to let him be saved from his fate.

I feel like this because I'm sure that Jesus died for me and I am his forever. Nothing anybody says can change that. Belief is to believe in the unseen.

[Charon]

Something about thinking of God as a physical being with human thought is bothering me, but hear me out anyway;

This statement of yours bothered me

God knew we would fail, which is to say that he made us to fail. He knew every aspect of what we would do, how we would do it, and when we would do it

and I thought I might try to explain why

God, should God exist, could not have known we would fail.

The God of religion is all knowing, is all powerful- yes... but as it has been stated here by DeathWish (and Raylen) that same God gave people the ability to choose. That same God gave people free will.
Therefore God knows everything which has been, is, and can be... God did not necessarily know which choice man would make.
God would have known that Man could make the wrong choice in exactly the same way as they could make the right one.

God would have known both were possible... and would have known the many millions of outcomes that each choice could/would have on the future..

Why doesn't God sort out all our problems for us was another of your questions.
If our actions had no consequences, would we bother to act? If good would come of our every choice (because God was solving our problems) it would be the same as having no choice.
If I chose to hurt people for fun, and God always made it so people were not actually hurt - as I would never see the pain my actions could cause, I would never feel any guilt. I'd be a pretty nasty person... and at the end of the day it wouldn't matter if I was a good person or a nasty one, because the world would be 'right'

In that 'right' world I would likely have no sense of morality... and I would not appreciate what I had

The world is a bit of a mess... we made it that way. God didn't.
God may have suspected that we would, but because every person has the freewill to make their own choices God couldn't have known that we definately would.

It's the fact that we have free will that allows us to contemplate all this. No one forces anyone to abide by a certain faith or a certain set of beliefs.
We get to choose our beliefs for ourselves... because we have free will.

Whether it really was a God who gave that free will to us doesn't really matter-

It is your choice whether or not you read what I said, take heed of what I say, or whether you choose question it

Edit: Sorry for interupting your debate ^^;;;

Edited by Charon, 10 November 2004 - 07:55 PM.

[Mercutio]

/t Deathwish If Jesus did not choose to die, then how can you say that all have free will?

/t Charon I choose to question it.

How can one be all-knowing, and not know what will happen?
How can one be just, and not make any attempt to set anything straight?

This would make God out to be an apathetic historian, keeping track of what he made, yet not trying to help in the least. By what you're saying, God gave up on man a long time ago, and is waiting for the end of it.

Edited by Mercutio, 10 November 2004 - 07:54 PM.

[Deathwish]

Once again you read half my sentence...

Read it again...

Ok I'll rephrase it even. He chose to follow his fathers will. And his fathers will was for him to die.

Edited by Deathwish, 10 November 2004 - 07:53 PM.

[Mercutio]

Deathwish: Jesus didn't choose to die he did what his father wanted.
Deathwish: He chose to follow his fathers will.

...

Then God did not offer him as a sacrifice, he let him choose to die for others.

This is not the point, and I'd appreciate it vastly if you try and answer the actual question instead of fixating on the outer details.

Edited by Mercutio, 10 November 2004 - 07:58 PM.

[Deathwish]

He did offer him as a sacrifice for our sin.

[Mercutio]

You just said that he chose to die for our sins. God allowed him to make this decision. Allowing someone to die is not sacrificing them, it is accepting a decision.

Please get back to the question at hand. It would be most appreciated.