56 replies to this topic

[Sarah]

So lately I have noticed that the player activity on the 1alt server has been quite low.
No other game that I know of permanently bans any players as a punishment. With a player base this low, why are perm bans logical? Before any perm bans were enforced on the 1a server, the server activity was at its peak. Currently, its at one of the lowest points.
I can present evidence for this point. On April 1st, 2009, Jordan aka Freek (a player that had been perm banned back in February 2008) had at least three accounts locked and was re-banned. During the few months before this ban, the server activity was at its highest in a year. Immediately following the ban, the player activity dropped. Coincidence? If you don't believe me, heres a graph showing the statistics from the last year:


(http://uk4.mrgigabit...nms_online.html)

This is just one instance that can illustrate the negative effect of perm bans on player activity.
With a dying game, why does removing players completely from the game make sense?
I am in no way trying to criticize staff or offend anyone, but I believe this is an important issue for players and staff to look at and discuss.
Please don't flame, constructive discussion only.

[Dangerous]

We've all been over this topic a few times now, but from the evidence you provided it's clear that perm banning is not the answer, but you don't need a graph to tell you that

[Prophet]

I for one would rather play a game with fewer people if it means we get rid of the thieves...

Secondly that graph means nothing in terms of critical analysis...Do you have the graphs of previous years to see if there is any comparison such as April being around the time when it gets warmer outside or that exam season is rolling around?

[Sarah]

I for one am of the opinion that deleting characters is a harsh enough punishment for thievery. I am addressing perm bans as a whole not just one reason for them.

There were other instances that the player activity had dropped because of a perm ban, but unfortunately I am unable to illustrate this correlation because the site only goes back one year. I have messaged JLH to see if this data is available but recieved no response.

[Prophet]

I for one am of the opinion that deleting characters is a harsh enough punishment for thievery. I am addressing perm bans as a whole not just one reason for them.

There were other instances that the player activity had dropped because of a perm ban, but unfortunately I am unable to illustrate this correlation because the site only goes back one year. I have messaged JLH to see if this data is available but recieved no response.

Yes I see the logic there deleting the characters of thieves and not banning them is really going to stop them from stealing more characters to get back to where they were before.


Edit: Also if you want to talk about player loss, what about all those players lost as a result of them stealing?

Edited by Prophet, 20 November 2009 - 01:54 PM.

[Sarah]

I for one am of the opinion that deleting characters is a harsh enough punishment for thievery. I am addressing perm bans as a whole not just one reason for them.

There were other instances that the player activity had dropped because of a perm ban, but unfortunately I am unable to illustrate this correlation because the site only goes back one year. I have messaged JLH to see if this data is available but recieved no response.

Yes I see the logic there deleting the characters of thieves and not banning them is really going to stop them from stealing more characters to get back to where they were before.


Edit: Also if you want to talk about player loss, what about all those players lost as a result of them stealing?

If you give out your password, you are asking to be stolen from. And, again, I am discussing perm bans not thievery.

[Prophet]

Most perm bans are as a result of thievery, its just a case and example.

Your above post just totally ignores any moral values. That is the case for rules due to limitations in time to solve such cases; this doesn't make it right.

Permanent bans are done as a last resort and in most cases they are. You don't get perm banned for swearing in chat, its for serious anti-social behaviour the kind of which drives players away rather than encouraging them to carry on playing.

My point is, yes allowing these people to play again and increase players online in the short term, but how many people leave as a result of them?

[Prophet]

If you're stole from, it's your own fault. It's how staff looked at my issues on main years back.

See my above post about this being logistical rather than moral.

To apply the same logic, if you steal its your own fault you get perm-banned.

[Gaddy]

...so, anyone else with an engineering or mathmatical mindset has to look at this and roll their eyes.
You have not considered any of the other variables here.

This is about how much logic I see from this post-
Last year I turned 21, and was thus allowed to attend bars in the United States.
Since then, the world economy has taken a huge tumble. Graphs would show the Dow Jones completely sloping down directly after I turned 21, and it has not recovered from that yet.

Clearly, me reaching legal drinking age in the U.S. destroys world-wide economoics, correct?

[Prophet]

Recent empirical evidence supports this hypothesis.

On a serious note your above post pretty much nails my thoughts, as I'm coming to the end of my mathematics degree where I've covered a good deal of statistics modules I have to laugh at this and many other posts conclusions.

[Guess]

...so, anyone else with an engineering or mathmatical mindset has to look at this and roll their eyes.
You have not considered any of the other variables here.

This is about how much logic I see from this post-
Last year I turned 21, and was thus allowed to attend bars in the United States.
Since then, the world economy has taken a huge tumble. Graphs would show the Dow Jones completely sloping down directly after I turned 21, and it has not recovered from that yet.

Clearly, me reaching legal drinking age in the U.S. destroys world-wide economoics, correct?

I didn't know that you turning 21 had any relation to the economy. As to where what the original post is talking about does relate, therefore meaning it does impact the graph, therefore making the graph 'somewhat' useful. What would you use for evidence if not a graph of player activity?

Lets say one day the server crashes for 3 months so obviously no one played. But lets not blame the server crashing, lets say it got warm outside.

Edit: On a side note. It looks to me as the original poster used the graph to show some evidence on how perm bans effect the player activity. However, that is not the only thing the original poster was trying to get across. Read the rest of the post.

Edited by Guess, 20 November 2009 - 02:33 PM.

[Prophet]

Again showing an incredible degree of critical thinking

His point is that just because something happens at the same time does not make it the reason automatically; yes it could be the reason but at the same time it could not be.

I recall JLH in the past commenting about how exam season and summer have always resulted in less people logged on, so in this there is strong evidence that these also affect it.

If you really want these anti-social kids back on 1a then have them, but I don't want them unbanned from main. This I think will be backed up by most of the main population if Crane's topic a while a go warning about a thief is anything to go by.

Edit: Seeming as you are telling me to reread the post, how about you read mine and address my concerns that anti-social players drive away good players. (Which address the OP points, and perhaps post in a less condescending way if your only going to read a single post on the thread before replying.)

Edited by Prophet, 20 November 2009 - 02:44 PM.

[Guess]

Again, why I made the little 'joke' about the server crashing and it getting warm outside.

I understand his point, but as you said it 'could' be a reason. Also, being warmer outside/exam season wouldn't make the straight drop the graph shows at the end of april. If anything there would of been a slow decline like the rest of the graph. To have half the players just instantly drop off the graph, there would of had to be something that happened instantly that effected them. Not to mention, the graph was posted to show the time when the "anti social" player was playing, Jan-Apr. During those times the server was at its peak. Now how does that show that by having "anti social" players back, make the player activity drop.

Also, all of your opionons and reasons are based off the fact that most, if not everyone, of the perm banned players stole to get that way. There have been other reasons people have gotten perm banned, some of which werent "used as a last resort" they were the first action taken place. (e.x. PureMourning). Not to mention there have been a few players who got unbanned who have done just fine since there return (e.x. Dangerous).

Regardless of the graph, the original poster is trying to figure out why removing players completely (Anti social or not) is a good idea.

Edit: Just saw your edit. Since the original poster can't "Prove" to you how having an "anti social" player playing effected the playerbase. You prove to me how they drive others away.

Edited by Guess, 20 November 2009 - 02:55 PM.

[Prototype]

November now has more activity then November last year (almost doubled), doesn't that mean we're climbing in activity? Or am I reading this chart wrong?


I'm wondering tho, if it was common knowledge that if you jumped of a big building you would die. Would you still jump and try to cheat death?

One (if not -the-) biggest reason punishment exists, in game and in real life, is to scare people from committing the crimes in the first place. Plus the size Nightmist is, and how easy it is to destroy the fun for other people, staff and players alike. We have to be strict. And as far as Freek goes, he has been going around the ban dozens of times, forum and in game. I said this before, and his reply was something similar to him not caring because he wasn't allowed back ever anyways. Very promising, thats the same as saying "give me what I want and then I'll see if I will play by the rules".

And deleting accounts/crits of a thief is a poor punishment, mostly because they aren't his own (thief, remember?). And banning them is just giving them a time out. Nightmist is a sanctuary, a tribe, a city on it's own, if you stomp all over the rules and mistreat your brethren in such a way you deserve to be tied backwards on a donkey with a potato sack over your head and get cast out.

A thief leaving is just one person (and perhaps his friends, with whatever questionable motives they have). But letting them play will result in the loss of other players and staff time.

[Prophet]

Again, why I made the little 'joke' about the server crashing and it getting warm outside.

I understand his point, but as you said it 'could' be a reason. Also, being warmer outside/exam season wouldn't make the straight drop the graph shows at the end of april. If anything there would of been a slow decline like the rest of the graph. To have half the players just instantly drop off the graph, there would of had to be something that happened instantly that effected them. Not to mention, the graph was posted to show the time when the "anti social" player was playing, Jan-Apr. During those times the server was at its peak. Now how does that show that by having "anti social" players back, make the player activity drop.

Also, all of your opionons and reasons are based off the fact that most, if not everyone, of the perm banned players stole to get that way. There have been other reasons people have gotten perm banned, some of which werent "used as a last resort" they were the first action taken place. (e.x. PureMourning). Not to mention there have been a few players who got unbanned who have done just fine since there return (e.x. Dangerous).

Regardless of the graph, the original poster is trying to figure out why removing players completely (Anti social or not) is a good idea.

Edit: Just saw your edit. Since the original poster can't "Prove" to you how having an "anti social" player playing effected the playerbase. You prove to me how they drive others away.

By the same logic why does the biggest drop come mid-April rather than on the 1st April when the ban happened? Yet half term ends around the middle of April heralding the start of exam season.

Chris was banned because of Ste, who as far as I know doesn't play anymore.

Most perm-bans are a result of stealing this is a fact. Perhaps reading the definition of most would help you? Obviously by definition most does not mean all so by basing my opinions on most would be correct.

Then my reply to the original poster is that banning anti-social players encourages the other players to carry on playing, and doesn't mean people quit as a result of the banned players behaviour. (A point I have made in most of the other posts.)

Addressing the edit: Why have you put prove in quotation marks when I didn't say that? I have said that the graph does not show a definite correlation between the two, and my points are speculating on what would seem logical.

Edited by Prophet, 20 November 2009 - 03:12 PM.

[Prototype]

Hey, it's me again.

"On April 1st, 2009, Jordan aka Freek (a player that had been perm banned back in February 2008) had at least three accounts locked and was re-banned."

^^lol

That's kinda like busting out of jail, isn't it? I don't care much for why you were banned in the first place, but from the focus points of your posts (it's better for permanent ban players to play again to liven up the playerbase, o rly?) and your general behavior it shows no remorse for what you did nor understanding of why you were banned for it. This alone tells me you haven't learned and thus will do it again.

[Guess]

Since "most" perm bans come from thievery and you -know- this. Please list the perm bans and what they are for. Again the OP is regarding the 1alt server (Hence the 1alt graph).

Also, I put prove in quotes, because since the graph is useless, there is no absolute way to prove the OP's example. Therefore, since there is no way to prove the OP's example on how the 1a server had a peak when an "anti social" player was playing the game. I wanted you to prove to me, using evidence, that it drives people away.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree, thieves should get punished. But how did the thief steal? Since nightmistians love real life examples.

Would you go up to a complete stranger and let them hold on to your wallet? Or give them the keys to your car?

No you wouldn't. Those who get stolen from -usually- share in order to have some advantage. And they -were- willing to risk losing there account as soon as they gave the other person there password, to have that advantage.

Getting rid of thieves totally doesn't seem like a bad idea. But how long does it take for you to tag someone for stealing? Since "the size Nightmist is" it wouldn't take long for word to get out of who is a thief and who isn't. Hence how it came about last time. Now who would be crazy enough to give that same person (or anyone) there password when they knew there was a thief about?

Hey, it's me again.

"On April 1st, 2009, Jordan aka Freek (a player that had been perm banned back in February 2008) had at least three accounts locked and was re-banned."

^^lol

That's kinda like busting out of jail, isn't it? I don't care much for why you were banned in the first place, but from the focus points of your posts (it's better for permanent ban players to play again to liven up the playerbase, o rly?) and your general behavior it shows no remorse for what you did nor understanding of why you were banned for it. This alone tells me you haven't learned and thus will do it again.

It would be like busting out of jail if you were sentenced to life. In which case who wouldn't try to bust out of jail? However, if you are sentenced to lets say six months, why would someone risk busting out of jail when they have a chance after the six month jail period? After of which one would believe that during those six months the person in jail would of thought about why they were there and make changes so that they never ended up there again.

Hence, why they don't execute everyone who commits a crime.

Edited by Guess, 20 November 2009 - 03:30 PM.

[Dangerous]

Way to go on the name dropping :S

[Prophet]

Please don't try and compare it to real life it never works.

Once again your missing the point...No one has said the graph is useless, just that on its own it doesn't show anything you need some control cases to compare it with.

Your below example about word getting out is exactly what happened, and this is why Jordan used multiple aliases to get peoples accounts.

[Prototype]

It would be like busting out of jail if you were sentenced to life. In which case who wouldn't try to bust out of jail? However, if you are sentenced to lets say six months, why would someone risk busting out of jail when they have a chance after the six month jail period? After of which one would believe that during those six months the person in jail would of thought about why they were there and make changes so that they never ended up there again.

Exactly my previous point, we should lower all punishments else people will go around them. Yea... that's not really how it works.

So we should only detain criminals for so long, else they will break out anyways? It's the criminals who should abide by the rules set, it's not the honest people who have to abide by the behavior of criminals. Something you have yet to grasp.

The only argument you seem to come up with is that it's better to let criminals play because they will try to do it anyways. That's a bit ridiculous wouldn't you say?

[Dangerous]

I don't think thats the point sarah's trying to make, but from my experience jordan is a nice guy, i personally don't see why hes perm'd but thats just my opinion.

[Prophet]

I don't think thats the point sarah's trying to make, but from my experience jordan is a nice guy, i personally don't see why hes perm'd but thats just my opinion.

Yes a perfectly nice guy until he repeatedly stole peoples things...He wasn't banned for lolz.

[Guess]

Please don't try and compare it to real life it never works.

Once again your missing the point...No one has said the graph is useless, just that on its own it doesn't show anything you need some control cases to compare it with.

Your below example about word getting out is exactly what happened, and this is why Jordan used multiple aliases to get peoples accounts.

Jordan used multiple aliases to not get instant perm banned. Not to get into peoples accounts. People let him in knowingly because they would rather have 3 months of fun on the game and risk there accounts instead of sitting on the same old boring thing.

It would be like busting out of jail if you were sentenced to life. In which case who wouldn't try to bust out of jail? However, if you are sentenced to lets say six months, why would someone risk busting out of jail when they have a chance after the six month jail period? After of which one would believe that during those six months the person in jail would of thought about why they were there and make changes so that they never ended up there again.

Exactly my previous point, we should lower all punishments else people will go around them. Yea... that's not really how it works.

So we should only detain criminals for so long, else they will break out anyways? It's the criminals who should abide by the rules set, it's not the honest people who have to abide by the behavior of criminals. Something you have yet to grasp.

The only argument you seem to come up with is that it's better to let criminals play because they will try to do it anyways. That's a bit ridiculous wouldn't you say?

Your missing the point. The point is that perm bans don't do anything better for the game then a long term ban, such as 6 month or so ban would do. If perm bans are supposed to be a last resort, why are there no long term bans? 6 months, 1 year, etc. You can't say that a 6 month ban wouldn't suffice and show the person who received it the seriousness of there actions. How would you know, its never been done.

The point is throwing around perm bans get the game no where. It just cuts the player base and with "the size Nightmist is" it cant afford to lose many.

[Prophet]

Jordan used multiple aliases to not get instant perm banned. Not to get into peoples accounts. People let him in knowingly because they would rather have 3 months of fun on the game and risk there accounts instead of sitting on the same old boring thing.

Wrong I remember him on Main posing as a different alias before stealing accounts.

Your missing the point. The point is that perm bans don't do anything better for the game then a long term ban, such as 6 month or so ban would do. If perm bans are supposed to be a last resort, why are there no long term bans? 6 months, 1 year, etc. You can't say that a 6 month ban wouldn't suffice and show the person who received it the seriousness of there actions. How would you know, its never been done.

The point is throwing around perm bans get the game no where. It just cuts the player base and with "the size Nightmist is" it cant afford to lose many.

Wrong, it has been done, perhaps not recently but a while ago long term bans were occasionally used.

Edited by Prophet, 20 November 2009 - 03:44 PM.

[Dangerous]

It'd be stupid to comment on the ban itself without knowing the full details, so try to keep the topic clean so it dosen't get deleted k thanks

[Sarah]

Jordan used multiple aliases to not get instant perm banned. Not to get into peoples accounts. People let him in knowingly because they would rather have 3 months of fun on the game and risk there accounts instead of sitting on the same old boring thing.

Wrong I remember him on Main posing as a different alias before stealing accounts.

Your missing the point. The point is that perm bans don't do anything better for the game then a long term ban, such as 6 month or so ban would do. If perm bans are supposed to be a last resort, why are there no long term bans? 6 months, 1 year, etc. You can't say that a 6 month ban wouldn't suffice and show the person who received it the seriousness of there actions. How would you know, its never been done.

The point is throwing around perm bans get the game no where. It just cuts the player base and with "the size Nightmist is" it cant afford to lose many.

Wrong, it has been done, perhaps not recently but a while ago long term bans were occasionally used.

I think you're getting your stories confused here. Maybe you ought to sit this one out.


If long term bans were "occasionally" used "a while ago," I'm curious as to what happened to these players. Did they see the light? Or did the repeat their offenses? And if long term bans were used "a while ago," why are they no longer used? If a perm ban is supposed to be a last resort, why are first time offenders recieving the harshest punishment?

[Peacemaker]

Hey, it's me again.

"On April 1st, 2009, Jordan aka Freek (a player that had been perm banned back in February 2008) had at least three accounts locked and was re-banned."

^^lol

That's kinda like busting out of jail, isn't it? I don't care much for why you were banned in the first place, but from the focus points of your posts (it's better for permanent ban players to play again to liven up the playerbase, o rly?) and your general behavior it shows no remorse for what you did nor understanding of why you were banned for it. This alone tells me you haven't learned and thus will do it again.

Indeed he did get three accounts locked. One of my characters was in one of those accounts. Not that i had anything to do with any of it, but my nephew who was sharing with me did loan who he thought was Ryan my lvl 31 cleric. Well it just so happens when he got loaned the cleric that Jordan logged it on. Turns out since his ip showed up on my cleric that my cleric was banned, even though i had no idea he was there or had nothing to do with it. Now others say oh thats a result of sharing and thats total bs. I cant pick a person that hasnt loaned out a character to do a boss of some sort on one alt. I am all for perm bans, but shouldnt the people that didnt do the stuff get their characters back? You know if a thief stole it from you, isnt it just logic that it gets returned?

Edited by Peacemaker, 20 November 2009 - 04:01 PM.

[Sarah]

Hey, it's me again.

"On April 1st, 2009, Jordan aka Freek (a player that had been perm banned back in February 2008) had at least three accounts locked and was re-banned."

^^lol

That's kinda like busting out of jail, isn't it? I don't care much for why you were banned in the first place, but from the focus points of your posts (it's better for permanent ban players to play again to liven up the playerbase, o rly?) and your general behavior it shows no remorse for what you did nor understanding of why you were banned for it. This alone tells me you haven't learned and thus will do it again.

Indeed he did get three accounts locked. One of my characters was in one of those accounts. Not that i had anything to do with any of it, but my nephew who was sharing with me did loan who he thought was Ryan my lvl 31 cleric. Well it just so happens when he got loaned the cleric that Jordan logged it on. Turns out since his ip showed up on my cleric that my cleric was banned, even though i had no idea he was there or had nothing to do with it. Now others say oh thats a result of sharing and thats total bs. I cant pick a person that hasnt loaned out a character to do a boss of some sort on one alt. I am all for perm bans, but shouldnt the people that didnt do the stuff get their characters back? You know if a thief stole it from you, isnt it just logic that it gets returned?

Every time anyone loans out a character, they are risking that they might lose it. Its your own fault you gave out your cleric and lost it.
Regardless, this thread is not about Jordan's bans, there was no need to interject the fact that you were somehow involved. Whats done is done, staff have already said they're not giving back your cleric. QQ



P.S. Your post is wayyyyyyyyy off topic.....

[Prophet]

Jordan used multiple aliases to not get instant perm banned. Not to get into peoples accounts. People let him in knowingly because they would rather have 3 months of fun on the game and risk there accounts instead of sitting on the same old boring thing.

Wrong I remember him on Main posing as a different alias before stealing accounts.

Your missing the point. The point is that perm bans don't do anything better for the game then a long term ban, such as 6 month or so ban would do. If perm bans are supposed to be a last resort, why are there no long term bans? 6 months, 1 year, etc. You can't say that a 6 month ban wouldn't suffice and show the person who received it the seriousness of there actions. How would you know, its never been done.

The point is throwing around perm bans get the game no where. It just cuts the player base and with "the size Nightmist is" it cant afford to lose many.

Wrong, it has been done, perhaps not recently but a while ago long term bans were occasionally used.

I think you're getting your stories confused here. Maybe you ought to sit this one out.


If long term bans were "occasionally" used "a while ago," I'm curious as to what happened to these players. Did they see the light? Or did the repeat their offenses? And if long term bans were used "a while ago," why are they no longer used? If a perm ban is supposed to be a last resort, why are first time offenders recieving the harshest punishment?

How about you sit this one out your knowledge seems to be limited to the start of the 1a server ignoring the fact the game was around a good 6/7 years before this.

Out of those long-term banned they didn't really come back or at least to the extent of playing as they did before.

My stories aren't confused either Jordan played main before he played 1a and stole on main as well, constantly using different aliases to get access to peoples accounts before stealing the stuff in it

[Guess]

Jordan used multiple aliases to not get instant perm banned. Not to get into peoples accounts. People let him in knowingly because they would rather have 3 months of fun on the game and risk there accounts instead of sitting on the same old boring thing.

Wrong I remember him on Main posing as a different alias before stealing accounts.

Your missing the point. The point is that perm bans don't do anything better for the game then a long term ban, such as 6 month or so ban would do. If perm bans are supposed to be a last resort, why are there no long term bans? 6 months, 1 year, etc. You can't say that a 6 month ban wouldn't suffice and show the person who received it the seriousness of there actions. How would you know, its never been done.

The point is throwing around perm bans get the game no where. It just cuts the player base and with "the size Nightmist is" it cant afford to lose many.

Wrong, it has been done, perhaps not recently but a while ago long term bans were occasionally used.

I think you're getting your stories confused here. Maybe you ought to sit this one out.


If long term bans were "occasionally" used "a while ago," I'm curious as to what happened to these players. Did they see the light? Or did the repeat their offenses? And if long term bans were used "a while ago," why are they no longer used? If a perm ban is supposed to be a last resort, why are first time offenders recieving the harshest punishment?

How about you sit this one out your knowledge seems to be limited to the start of the 1a server ignoring the fact the game was around a good 6/7 years before this.

Out of those long-term banned they didn't really come back or at least to the extent of playing as they did before.

My stories aren't confused either Jordan played main before he played 1a and stole on main as well, constantly using different aliases to get access to peoples accounts before stealing the stuff in it

First off, Looks like those long-term banns did the trick. Where'd they go?

Even though this topic is about the 1a server. What were some of the aliases, I'm curious.