31 replies to this topic

[trigger happy]

ok...before i say anything ppl here cannot say i know nothin of mages...me and my cousin have owned 1arch and 1master...1 lvl 15 and a 17..and couple lvl 25-26's ....iam training one atm...the lvl 15 that is...now i know they power own because they are so hard to lvl...but lets face it...sence they did this big update on the mages...their not NEARLY as hard to level...

i do think mages should be very good...but this is to good...with mine and cody's lvl 29 and 30 mages we could round anything(other then arch zerk which was allways mort after a full round so doesnt matter much)...thats without any stat mods and not both of them hiting at same time...just a round of 5 can round any class/race other then pacifist...lol...so i think fizzle rate should stay as it is now...and i think damage should be decreased a little..

maybe have them gain exp slower?...like a -10% exp..or -5%..something has to happen..they are to easy to level up now..and are to good...lol...i wouldnt complain but iam not one of the ppl that like things to be unfair

used to mages just plainly sucked..couldnt kill hardly anything...they fizzles and got resisted ALOT...but now their gods...it used to take me days to lvl a mage 1-15...now can be done in hours...15-25 isnt nearly as hard anymore either..i know its still slightly hard in them lvl's..but once they get beam its easy to lvl them...just mana leechs is all...which is why you stay close to SS or windia or another selected town..

well someone plz give your ideas on how to fix this matter?

[Squee]

Where can I get this "mana leech" you speak of for my mage? Because I can't find anything.

As for mages being over-powered... No, they're not.

Let me walk around with my mage in front of Arilin. Without any spells on, chances are a Berserker will find me and berserk me to death before I can do anything. It doesn't even have to be a high level one, it just needs to get the jump on me.

In fact, as long as any character gets a jump on a mage, it will probably win. A group of hearty clerics will take down most mages if the mage isn't expecting it. And by expecting it, I mean that the mage has Mana Shroud/Aura of Protection on.

In the examples you give, you've given the Mage its ideal situation; the mage is ready for the fight. If that Fighter gets a jump on me, it will most likely finish its round before I (the mage) do. That means that it will be ready to hit me again faster than I will. That means that if the first round didn't kill me, the second round will almost definatley.

As for training... No, the training system is fine as it is. The Mage gains stamina slower than all the other classes. The Mage eats through mana even with the new updates. And the Mage also has the least amount of HP, meaning that it will die faster, meaning it will lose more Exp. than other characters.

There is nothing that needs to be fixed. Silversail's hit and run tactics can be done by any character. If a Thief and a Mage both tried these hit and run tactics at the same time, the mage would probably still level up slower.

Lastly, training does not get easier once you get Beam. Beam eats through mana like crazy especially since you'll be using it almost every single round. If you've ever had a Cleric who had to constantly cast Divine Restoration with all of its stamina for long periods of time, you'd know that it burns through mana incredibly fast; the mage is basically the same deal.

Mages were severley weaker than all the other classes pre-update. In the update they were given lower mana costs and higher damage. Both brought mages back up to their fighting prime. To simply take that away would be terrible. That's like me saying that Druid's are over-powered so we should just take away updates from them; what do you need Stormwrath for anyways?

[alone]

-Passes Squee Mr. Blankie-

It's ok, it's ok.. It's over now.

[trigger happy]

good...someone answered my post....ok first of all by "mana leech" i ment they use up alot of mana...second stormwrath for druids is a very reasonable spell considering druids are ment to be a morphing/summoning(not as much summoning but calling the wild creatures to help him/her)/ and are supposed to be fairly elemental which would be stormwrath/jolt/nature's fury...allthough not sure how they play the roll of healing...like the spell for druids but dont see how they are supposed to be able to heal even for small amounts

i dont think mages need to go back to the old ways...or even close...just i think beam should be SLIGHTLY lower'd...with the arch mage we had, i could do 60's nearly every single time on dilusional...the mages name was sythos and it was xx 21 20 18 19 xx and dilusional is a arch elf cleric...18 21 18 18 20 21...i think that should be changed just a little...cause of the simple fact that 8/10 times i rounded the cleric....

also beam does make it easy to train mages...they dont miss....i dont train on anything that i do low damage so iam counting monsters that give around basic damage(thinking as if hiting a arch with 18 wis...) so you cant say it doesnt help cause they dont hit high enough with it to matter cause they hit fairly high with it but what counts is they allmost allways hit...lol...they like nearly never fizzle or get resisted(btw all this i am basing on is a 4 stats mage meaning that intell/wis is perfect atleast)...

i wouldnt like to see mages suck again..i'd hate that...i am after all a fan of them my self and like to duel with them as nearly my favorite...allthough i like druids more...i just would like it either to take more time to train mages and keep its current settings....cause they are good for mage but it also at same time made it easyier to train which deffeted the porppuse of making them better...

if i was jlh/pandilex and other staff i'd try making it so mages get exp SLIGHTLY slower...not a big -20% exp...or -10%..maybe -5% or so..something around that...

[Charon]

allthough not sure how they play the roll of healing...like the spell for druids but dont see how they are supposed to be able to heal even for small amounts

Druids summon the powers of nature. Nature is frequently living things... therefore to some extend druids can harness the power of life itself to heal themselves. They pray to god(esse)s of nature in the same way a cleric might pray to the god of ultimate goodness or whatever.

How you can say "Druid are meant to summon things, so their spells are okay" and then say mages damage should be weakened is infuriating. Mages are meant to use magic, mages are meant to channel energies (be they electric, fire or other) just as druids summon.
"Mages are meant to use magic, so their spells are okay"

also beam does make it easy to train mages...they dont miss....i dont train on anything that i do low damage so iam counting monsters that give around basic damage(thinking as if hiting a arch with 18 wis...)

You are using beam on an arch mage and trying to tell people they are too easy to train?
Damn straight! By the time a mage gets to arch it is meant to be strong, and it is meant to be able to hit things.
And your statement that it doesn't miss doesn't counter Squee's statement that beam guzzles mana.

You say yourself that you arent training on anything you do low damage on... that's making you biased. What about the people who do train on things they do low damage on? Should you make it even harder for them than it already is simply because you choose to train somewhere 'easier'?

they like nearly never fizzle or get resisted

I've resisted mages plenty of times on Styx *shrug*
I don't attack people with my mages in training, and havent duelled anyone yet though, so I can't say if my mages get resisted by others.

i just would like it either to take more time to train mages and keep its current settings....cause they are good for mage but it also at same time made it easyier to train which deffeted the porppuse of making them better...

As for training... No, the training system is fine as it is. The Mage gains stamina slower than all the other classes. The Mage eats through mana even with the new updates. And the Mage also has the least amount of HP, meaning that it will die faster, meaning it will lose more Exp. than other characters

Mages were severley weaker than all the other classes pre-update. In the update they were given lower mana costs and higher damage. Both brought mages back up to their fighting prime

It hasn't defeated the purpose of making them better... the change was made because mages before were far underpowered. The changes simply made them more equal.
Mages are still hard to train. Mages still take a long time to train.
I don't see the problem

if i was jlh/pandilex and other staff i'd try making it so mages get exp SLIGHTLY slower...not a big -20% exp...or -10%..maybe -5% or so..something around that...

Well I'm pretty glad you aren't JLH, Pandilex or other staff.
Giving mages an experience detriment? That has to be one of the nastiest ideas I have ever heard.
Why should mages suffer? They work just as hard on their magic as a berserker does with his rages, a fighter with his swordsmanship or a cleric with their prayers.
Their experience should therefore rise just as everyone elses does.

Edited by Charon, 11 September 2004 - 12:07 AM.

[Squee]

Maybe mages are the "stupid" class and they need to do things several times before they can learn from it.

...Is a stupid mage an oxy-moron?

[Sneaky]

Yes, yes it is Squee.

*claps at Charon's excellent performance*

Mages are not overpowered, if, like Squee said, they don't have Mana Shroud/AoP on. I was messing around while bored earlier and dueled 2 lvl 25 clannies at once on my lvl 26 mage, I didnt get Mana Shroud in fast enough one of the times and got clicked by a lvl 25 thief.

Not only to mages have the lowest Hp, take longer to get their next stamina, and eat mana like a fat kid, but they also (without a spell cast) have extremely low armor. They're not overpowered now, Trigger, you're just one of those people that gets pissy beause someone that knew how to use a mage well probably took out your party.

[Ryuku]

They're not overpowered now, Trigger, you're just one of those people that gets pissy beause someone that knew how to use a mage well probably took out your party.

It must've been Mike...

[Squee]

...I didnt get Mana Shroud in fast enough one of the times and got clicked by a lvl 25 thief.

Actually, even if you did get the Mana Shroud up, you would've been clicked anyways (assassinate ignores armour).

[trigger happy]

first Charon i'd like to ask if you even use a mage?...and when i say i train on things i dont do low damage on...i mean thats what i am basing all my information on...and its not being bias..its just like if other ppl wanna be dumb and waste time of crudy monsters thats their problem...or maybe they cant handle geting pk'd and are very patient..w/e the reason..i am not bias for determining this info on only certain monsters(only things i do around the same damage i would as if i was hiting someone with 18 wis)..

second i am not trying to say they are "overpowered" iam trying to say they are set up good for their class but they should be the hardest class to lvl to arch...which they arent...personaly a fighter is harder and fighters SUCK...in my opinion...

third ty charon for that bit of info about druids..lol explained well about the heal spell..

also i'd like to make it clear that if someone is stupid enough to train on the crappy monsters for exp then why should all of Nm be punished...charon you said this

You say yourself that you arent training on anything you do low damage on... that's making you biased. What about the people who do train on things they do low damage on? Should you make it even harder for them than it already is simply because you choose to train somewhere 'easier'?

...well tell me...can and i do really care if someone wants to waste their time on monsters that hardly give any exp?...nope

forth for you sneaky

Not only to mages have the lowest Hp, take longer to get their next stamina, and eat mana like a fat kid, but they also (without a spell cast) have extremely low armor. They're not overpowered now, Trigger, you're just one of those people that gets pissy beause someone that knew how to use a mage well probably took out your party.

i am not a person that gets pissy because someone killed me with a mage...if that was the case then i'd be pissed at the rest of the classes...iam not mad at mages..in any way..i just want them to have to actualy work for what they get..let them be gods..i got no problem with that really...just maybe make the gods work harder?

[Ryuku]

Assassinate does NOT ignore armor, it needs too though.

[Cule]

Mages are perfect right now!

[Squee]

Assassinate does NOT ignore armor, it needs too though.

Must have changed that, then. Does Smite ignore armour?

...well tell me...can and i do really care if someone wants to waste their time on monsters that hardly give any exp?...nope

Oh, I'm sorry that I don't log on a dozen alts to train and need to train in secluded and easy places by myself. Silly me.

first Charon i'd like to ask if you even use a mage?

...I don't attack people with my mages in training...

..personaly a fighter is harder...

I definatley agree with you. I mean, fighters get stamina incredibly fast, have high amounts of HP, can wear great armour and can hit hard at a steady, constant rate.

Damn you, JLH and Pandilex! Damn you to hell!

...just maybe make the gods [mages] work harder?

Screw you! I had to train Squee without alts! I killed over 11 000 black bears! God only knows how many Brown Bears! I had an innumerable amount of Small Snakes under his belt! Not to mention, I had to deal with constantly being PK'ed because I don't have alts logged on at the same time!

And trust me, even if I did have alts, mages are a pain to train. Nobody can deny that. Mages are costantly cutting into gold profits because of their high mana usage, a brisk breeze will usually snap a mages torso in half (nevermind other players) and they gain stamina the slowest - meaning that they get exp. the slowest, meaning that they are the slowest class to train.

Mages are perfect right now!

[Sneaky]

Good job, Squee. And assassinate can't ignore armor, as in all the other duels I got Mana Shroud and Haste in before the two people could hit me, and I easily took them out.

Edited by Sneaky, 11 September 2004 - 03:26 PM.

[Penguin]

A: 5 stam mages round anything other than zerks
B: they are NOT hard to train right now
C: they can't use drugs

-so maybe they SHOULDN'T be able to round anything so easily.
possibly raise the resist rate a little?

[Sneaky]

Possibly lower Penguin's ability to post a little? As we already discussed, mages can, infact, use drugs. And where's your mage that you trained?

[Penguin]

sold them

2&3 are the only one I have left, sold others because people see them as being so hard to train they pay loads

1. sythos no clue who he is now
2. have a lvl 25 I'm working on right now
3. have a lvl 19 I'm working on right now
4. old lord, no clue who he is now
5. some others can't think of names right now

Edited by Penguin, 11 September 2004 - 06:00 PM.

[trigger happy]

A: 5 stam mages round anything other than zerks
B: they are NOT hard to train right now
C: they can't use drugs

-so maybe they SHOULDN'T be able to round anything so easily.
possibly raise the resist rate a little?

ty

[Squee]

Like, I know I'm saying the words. I can see the words as I type them... but it's like it goes in one ear and out the other.

The REASON why a 5 stamina mage can round anything (which is a false statement in itself) is because they last so little time in a bout.

A mage specializes in getting the jump on people and taking them out quickly. Sure, they can also do well in 1v1 duels... but put them in any other situation and they will fail.

If I entered a Triplex, I would not even get the chance to cast AoP before my mage is shredded to bits by rapid fires and berserks. Even if I do get AoP up (giving me some odd 100 armour), my mage will only have so much HP. I'll still be getting hit for 20-40 damage each successful stamina which means I'll die fairly quickly.

[Penguin]

in a mosh, everyone is getting hit with a barrage of attacks, its just so happens MAGES take about 1/100 of the damage other classes take and the give far more than the others (excluding zerkers). so what if they have 50 hit points less when they take 100 less damage per round. also, they do NOT fail in anything other than 1v1, I've seen a lone mage take down 2 archs and an expert

[Squee]

In a mosh, a mage has to carry along more mana which means less healing potions.

If I'm going to keep AoP up the whole mosh, I'm going to have to sacrifice the mana and the stamina (if I cast Haste, that's even more mana and another stamina point).

So I've just eaten 1/3 of my mana that will last me like a minute. How long do moshes go on for? How much mana will I have to be holding just to keep AoP up and to attack constantly with Beam?

[Penguin]

try picking up some of the thousands of mana crystals that get dropped

anything else than minor mana difficulties in moshes?

[Sneaky]

Squee you can precast in Triplex, which is why mages do so well there.

[trigger happy]

Squee you can precast in Triplex, which is why mages do so well there.

lol true true

The REASON why a 5 stamina mage can round anything (which is a false statement in itself) is because they last so little time in a bout.

wtf you mean a false statement?...we're talking about basicly arch vs arch...a mage can round anything other then possibly another mage(cant say cause i actualy(wish i would have) dueled another mage vs one of mine) and zerker...ANY of the other class/races can easily get rounded...so dont try me there..i know that for a fact

A mage specializes in getting the jump on people and taking them out quickly. Sure, they can also do well in 1v1 duels... but put them in any other situation and they will fail.

tell me something when you say in ANY SITUATION i take it not actualy every situation but ALOT of them...but really...ive seen mages(sence update) take out party's alone...thats of arch vs experts..or even arch mage vs 2-3 other archies...cause once that mages casted AoP and Haste it was all over...the mage got hurt yet...used couple pots and mana and so did they...but still they got rounded one at a time..and mage won....so dont try and say mages suck if they get jumped..they can still take care of them....you keep talking like that makes you look like you've never used a mage...lol


btw i think smite still ignores armor..not sure...cant find out atm cause of the hurricanes i havent been able to play Nm(at my aunts house sence the first hurricane and not allowed to download Nm lol)

[joanna]

Mage mages like the wizards in utopia - if the spell fizzes, theres a good chance the mage will blow up

j/k btw

IIRC smite/assassinate partially ignore armour, so it only has about one fifth the effect (not sure of exact number)

[Thunderja]

Didn't read but got told to say it's dumb.

[Squee]

If I get jumped by spelled up rangers, then yes, I'll be shredded to ribbons.

And AoP really isn't that effective unless you have those little trinkets of armour (those costly trinkets of armour like CRs and Boots of Time or Rings of Ashtray). I could probably count the number of mages that have 4 Crystal Rings on my fingers.

Haste lasts... I think it's 20 seconds. It costs 40 mana to use. So, in a minute, you'll (in theory) use 120 mana just casting haste. Now, add in Beam and add in Mana Shroud. It gets costly to say the least.

try picking up some of the thousands of mana crystals that get dropped

Well, then any other class should be able to pick up the thousands of healing potions that are dropped. And it's not like Beam uses all your stamina like Rapid Fire; you can hold your macro for healing potions and (effectively) take no damage.

wtf you mean a false statement?...we're talking about basicly arch vs arch...a mage can round anything other then possibly another mage(cant say cause i actualy(wish i would have) dueled another mage vs one of mine) and zerker...ANY of the other class/races can easily get rounded

See, again, that's an ideal situation. You're coutning those times that our mages get a full, perfect round. I can tell you that it is rare to get those perfect rounds.

In the Triplex this week, I think 1 out of every 3 or 4 of my Beams was either resisted or fizzled. And, yes, my mage does have 21 intelligence.

[trigger happy]

If I get jumped by spelled up rangers, then yes, I'll be shredded to ribbons

omfg your deffending your opinion by saying if a mage gets jumped by rangers then it will die?...rofl every class has that fault...if iam a cleric/zerk/thief/druid or w/e it is and i get jumped by a bunch of rangers iam dead..unless i run fast enough...

And AoP really isn't that effective unless you have those little trinkets of armour (those costly trinkets of armour like CRs and Boots of Time or Rings of Ashtray). I could probably count the number of mages that have 4 Crystal Rings on my fingers.

aop if really nice even without special items....my mage didnt have anything but its silver amulet/golden robes and i casted aop and it had ok amount of armor but the thing is it made stuff miss alot...so aop helps alot...

Haste lasts... I think it's 20 seconds. It costs 40 mana to use. So, in a minute, you'll (in theory) use 120 mana just casting haste. Now, add in Beam and add in Mana Shroud. It gets costly to say the least.

thats about right...but you have around 400mp if your arch mage and isnt off on wis...you got a little to spare...

See, again, that's an ideal situation. You're coutning those times that our mages get a full, perfect round. I can tell you that it is rare to get those perfect rounds.

your must not use a arch mage or even a master that much....like 8/10 times my mage would round any other class...yes sometimes they dont get rounded..no class rounds things every time...but mages still round things ALOT....so its not a rare thing at all...unles your mage sucks

[lowmion]

So you're wanting Mages to be restricted again?

As Squee said not all ppl's use a multi-alt party, or can afford all the shiny armor's and spell's.

I personally like the idea that when my mage is arch, ppl will think twice before they try to pk me, due to the fact they 'might' lose one of there characters in there party, but in that situation they normally have used an arch cleric to 'boost' their attack capabilities and the mage get's clicked.

If anything mages are now more 'equal' to the other class's, (ie druids), in their ability to retaliate, except for the con issue that is, leave them the way they are and enjoy

As I've asked before in other post's, how many arch mages are there now in comparison to other class's, I bet the ratio would still be 1 to 10.

Anyway that's my two cents worth.

[joanna]

If mages are so easy to train why are there SOOOOO many archmages around.... i mean... my l26 mage is 67th on mage rankings with no gold... none of my ARCH alts get even on the top 100s for thier class with no gold (except my cleric)