50 replies to this topic

[Sean]

wurd

[archmaster]

ima an environmentalist liberal so i dont think that God would make animals to be killed

[Night_Angel]

i picked other cause i think both. though i refuse to believe that humans came from apes, i do believe that evoluton among a species could happen. and who knows how long a day is for God. so the ppl who use teh timeline of teh bible saying its not old enough acording to the bible may be wrong.

[Penguin]

ima an environmentalist liberal so i dont think that God would make animals to be killed

Just stop posting. It's better that way.

[Wolfgang]

This is something that I find myself wondering about quite a bit.

I, personally, believe in evolution. The evidence is very obviously all around us. For example, the HIV virus evolves (though they do very often refer to it as "mutation") at an obscene rate, as do many other viruses.

You can see evolution very clearly in animal populations (I have quite a few source for this, but none come to mind right now. Which both looks and sounds bad, I know...). It's not always something major, or even that noticeable, but it is still there. I'm fairly sure that the book "Last Chance to See" by Douglas Adams thouches down on the subject at lesat once or twice.

As for creationish, I'm not quite sure as to what my beliefs are. Every now and then, I have to sit down and stare at myself, or an x-ray, or recently the Body Worlds exhibit (which has recently stopped by in my area), and stare in awe at what we are, what we are composed of, and how we somehow seem to work.

After reading through books on the Human Genome project for my honors biology class, and various other books about the composition of the human body, it became something near impossible to not think that we were created by something.

I believe that it is very possible for a person to believe in both Creationism and Evolution together, something which was mentioned in the other thread (by Havanor, I believe), and something that was also mentioned during the John Scopes monkey trial (Evolution vs. Creationism), which a movie called "Inheret the Wind" was based on. Though all the names are changed, the court room dialouge is said to be dead on and completely correct.

(I've just lost my train of thought, as this brought up another question in my mind, pertaining to an alternate history community that I'm a member of (Change History, I post as kinderfresser), and I had to stop and post my question there, as I am that much of a geek...).

(*remembers... sorta*) During the Trial, while Skopes' lawyer was questioning the local minister, he asked a question about how long the day was, and that what was called the first day in the bible could be a million years, and then what was called the second day, could be a million more years. Or that the day could have been much longer than now, because they never stated that it was 24 hours long. Or something like that (I really don't remember exactly what the case argued was).

Also, while reading through the responces, I saw that DC linked to another topic in the forums, and while reading through that I saw this...:

We can speel off scientific facts until our fingers fall off but what the Bible was really meant for was for teaching purposes; not to preach. To take the Bible literally is wrong.

Eve ate from the tree, therefore, women are to blame for all the bad things in today's world? Snake's are really Satan in disguise? Animals were created for the sole purpose of serving us? I don't think so.

Eve showed us all that we all have weakness. We are all tempted and, by giving into that temptation, we fall.

In the story of the great flood, everyone on the earth has become evil. They sacrifice one another for God, thinking He will bless them. Noah and his family are the only ones who do not partake in these barbaric acts and, thus, God saves them. This story shows that you cannot just go "with the flow" if it means violating your Christian beliefs. Because Noah had "true" faith, he was able to avoid temptation and, as a result, he and his family were saved.

When reading the Bible, it's important to read between the lines. Not everything written is just black and white. However, while reading between the lines, it's important to search for "useful" meaning. Does discovering God's real nature help us to understand Him better? I don't think so. I think, in order to have a healthy relationship with God, you need to do it on your own terms. No book can ever tell you how to do this, only guide you.

Anyway, after that long winded, and possibly pointless rant, I am finally gonna get to the point and say this: I marked down that I believe in evolution, because, well, I do o_O.

But anything beyond that, as to how we got to be here in order to evolve, whether it be big bang or created by a higher power, I'm really not sure. It's something I'm constantly debating and a belief that I'm always re-evaluating in myself.

[Steam]

All ya got to do is think of the universe as Nightmist or another Computer type thing, There is God The Admin, Planets the wrolds, Humans as Players, Animals as Mobs, and then there is a mixture of both Evolution and Creationism. God/Admin Creates the Universe/Game witch then goes on to CREATE new things and then as things are see to evolve, is basicly God/Admin Updating the software, there for Scientist can believe in God as well as evolution, as all they have to think of is that God created the world yadda yadda yadda and the evolution was him updating it to make stuff better. :D Im a genius

[archmaster]

Moron.

who me? im not a moron, only creationists r morons
so stfu conservative......

[Bun]

heres how i look at it a star went boom all the planets are fragmants and the earth = a sweaty one cuz theres water witch means your all sweat balls


no really this is honestly what i believe now you can all call me crasy


i think where are a galaxy IN A FATTY BLACK BOX where basically lab rats and theres things that can make tidal waves n nuts and try kill us for a laugh.

Edited by Bun, 03 April 2005 - 03:47 AM.

[Bun]

All ya got to do is think of the universe as Nightmist or another Computer type thing, There is God The Admin, Planets the wrolds, Humans as Players, Animals as Mobs, and then there is a mixture of both Evolution and Creationism. God/Admin Creates the Universe/Game witch then goes on to CREATE new things and then as things are see to evolve, is basicly God/Admin Updating the software, there for Scientist can believe in God as well as evolution, as all they have to think of is that God created the world yadda yadda yadda and the evolution was him updating it to make stuff better. :D Im a genius

what worries me is i actully went to school with you....

[EvilDognapot]

you have to have fairly low standards to believe that someone would create so many species (us included) that have painfull, strangely tragic and/or deadly qualities to thier processes of procreation.

the fact that the dominant species of this planet has to perform surgery to enlarge or circumvent the birth canal in many cases does not bode well for the omni x3 creator. i know if i were responsible for a mess similar to humanity and earth, i wouldn't want to get my name all over it either, but my conscience would demand i apologize or fix my mistakes.

[Sourcream]

Well Logicaly Creation would come before evolution because something has to be created so evolution can take effect.

[archmaster]

heres how i look at it a star went boom all the planets are fragmants and the earth = a sweaty one cuz theres water witch means your all sweat balls


no really this is honestly what i believe now you can all call me crasy


i think where are a galaxy IN A FATTY BLACK BOX where basically lab rats and theres things that can make tidal waves n nuts and try kill us for a laugh.

i agree, to some extent......

[Rappy_Ninja]

Moron.

who me? im not a moron, only creationists r morons
so stfu conservative......

uhh... you calling people morons ? this is something new


evolution is impossible

and proved wrong countless times

learn what your talking about before you speak

Edited by Rappy_Ninja, 03 April 2005 - 06:17 PM.

[PureMourning]

How about presenting some details or proof before replying?

Elaborate please?

[EvilDognapot]

Moron.

who me? im not a moron, only creationists r morons
so stfu conservative......

uhh... you calling people morons ? this is something new


evolution is impossible

and proved wrong countless times

learn what your talking about before you speak

"In the broadest sense, evolution is merely change, and so is all-pervasive; galaxies, languages, and political systems all evolve. Biological evolution ... is change in the properties of populations of organisms that transcend the lifetime of a single individual. The ontogeny of an individual is not considered evolution; individual organisms do not evolve. The changes in populations that are considered evolutionary are those that are inheritable via the genetic material from one generation to the next. Biological evolution may be slight or substantial; it embraces everything from slight changes in the proportion of different alleles within a population (such as those determining blood types) to the successive alterations that led from the earliest protoorganism to snails, bees, giraffes, and dandelions."

- Douglas J. Futuyma in Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates 1986

impossible.

which is why societies which live at high altitudes over long periods of time DON'T develop greater lung capacity than societies which develop at sea level. hell, ever wonder why different races are that way? look at where they've been throughout history. evolution happens, but it's existance doesn't disclude the possibility of a creator.

[Gaddy]

To be honest, I wouldn't have looked at this post, except for the fact that Dognapot posted and I wanted to see what he said. He's one of the few people on the forums who can put things out in a sensible and well organized way when he wants to and I always like to read the more 'deep thought' type of things when he is posting rather than ignorant people refusing to allow people their own opinions.

Anyway, enough ass kissing for Doggyboy.


What he posted above this post was obviously making a point that evolution does happen. I agree that it doesn't make for proof that there is no great power that controls the universe, but I've never been one too deeply concerned with what makes everything happen.

Short term- I lack the give a damn to really ponder the question. It really doesn't matter very much to me.
I pray, but I wouldn't lose my head if someone told me that when I pray, I am talking to no one. Then, I wouldn't be too bothered if someone told me I should pray more because God (or another) controls everything.

[Wafer]

In my opinion, religion is the comfort blanket of the unimaginative, which is borne out by the creation idea. What a simplistic fairytale that is!

"he said 'let there be light!', and it was so." Not exactly Times Best Seller List on the old plot development front, is it? A bit like answering a kids questions, with 'I told you so, thats why'.

Of course its pointless arguing with the religious types though because they are scared, scared of the dark, scared of dying, scared of asking questions, the answers to which might remove their precious, supersitious comfort blanket.

And how can you possibly argue with someone who's belief's are based on faith, not tangible proof, faith?

So where theories about evolution may differ, those of a more scientific approach agree on some form of biological progression, which is either proven or not with scientific discovery. But those following creationism still have no proof's what-so-ever except their 'faith' about what is said in the Bible.

[Dc]

i believe that things change, but it is shown many times that a new reproducing species cannot be created. i dont have much time, so ill just give one.

horse+donkey=mule.
most mules are sterile, and the ones that are not always recreate only a horse if i remember correctly.

for those of you who want to know some stuff, i sugest the book
darwin and the devils advocate, written by patrick marx. or his simpler book called someones making a monkey out of you. its real simple and has a lot of good information and gives plenty of proof as so why evolution is impossible, and its only about 5$.

[PureMourning]

I only skimmed but evolutuon isn't that belief that a frog/cat mixture can evolve to an elephant.

[EvilDognapot]

i believe that things change, but it is shown many times that a new reproducing species cannot be created. i dont have much time, so ill just give one.

horse+donkey=mule.
most mules are sterile, and the ones that are not always recreate only a horse if i remember correctly.

for those of you who want to know some stuff, i sugest the book
darwin and the devils advocate, written by patrick marx. or his simpler book called someones making a monkey out of you. its real simple and has a lot of good information and gives plenty of proof as so why evolution is impossible, and its only about 5$.

you forget that evolution is a theory and is still being tested and revised. while it may not have been observable between the time darwin first suggested the notion and now, it remains a theory that cannot be wholly dismissed. evolution does happen and it has been observed through history, however dramatic craziness like dinosaurs turning into birds will probably never be proven.

i think evolution's truest test will be time, but for now there is simply not enough recorded history to make it as all encompassing as debunkers force it to be in order to dismiss it.

creation on the other hand is a much simpler matter, and logically without merit. the absence of an natural explaination of the universe does not give merit to a synthetic origin. i think it's called argumentum ad ignorantium, and it's rally cry for many persons of faith who find the notion of existance being older than 6,000 years as some kind of heresy.

that's why i find it comforting to refer to bill hicks when evolution is on the table.

"Folks, it?s time to evolve ideas. You know, evolution did not end with us growing thumbs. You do know that, right? Didn?t end there. We?re at the point now where we?re going to have to evolve ideas. The reason the world?s so mooseed up is we?re undergoing evolution. And the reason our institutions, our traditional religions are all crumbling is because they?re no longer relevant?So it?s time for us to create a new philosophy and perhaps even a new religion, you see. And that?s OK, ?cause that?s our right, ?cause we are the free children of God with minds who can imagine anything, and that?s kind of our role. How do you evolve ideas?"

--Bill Hicks, Laff Stop, Austin, Texas, Spring/Summer, 1993

i'd just hope the next step would involve our minds. i think it would be more efficient than developing the ability to withstand vast amounts of horrible food, no excercise, and toxic enviroments.

[Gaddy]

-nods in agreement with Dog again-

And the example of a Horse + Donkey = Mules
Isn't something people have even suggested for the creation of new species- by new species I mean an animal that can actually have offspring and pass down it's genes...which as DC said, mules cannot, along with most other mixtures of animals.
It is not at all a way of disproving evolution though...really a completely different topic until you get further into thinking about it---
Which I'll go ahead and do-

That really supports the Theory of Evolution. Think about it. Can a human mate with a horse and have any form of offspring even begin? No.
A horse and a donkey can---because, as the theory goes, they evolved from the same type of animal, and they haven't entirely changed from some of the basics of the un-evolved animal.
Therefore, they are similar enough to mate effectivly.



Evolution....as I understand it.
Animals (and plants) have different traits. Over time, if a trait helps the animal survive, more with that trait come about because the thing can reproduce more.
They continue becoming more and more common, and then, the animal has evolved- very little.
That happening over the course of a million years...you could get some major changes going on.



I don't disagree that it doesn't explain how things came to exist in the first place, and I really don't think it's logical to say that bacteria evolved into humans since bacteria survive rather well as they are, but I disagree with the statement that "evolution doesn't happen".

Edited by Gaddy, 07 April 2005 - 02:13 AM.