324 replies to this topic

[Penguin]

I'd like to add to what you said that he TOLD US he had chemical/biological weapons.

and I don't believe the media so much supports the democrats as much as liberals in general.

[Lich]

Rape does not constitute murdering an innocent person. If the woman can not support the baby financialy or what-not, adoption.

and a baby having no brain is an extremely odd uncommon off the wall unreasonable argument roflmao

edit: just saw two's post

Yes at the time we did believe he was a threat because he CLAIMED to have a bunch of chemical/biological weapons. But it isn't like he didn't have time to disantle them and hide them with all the time we spent deliberating.

You have so obviously never in your life so much as met a women who has been raped and discovered they are pregnate. Let me tell you what making her carry a baby for nine full months will do to her as I have not only met one I was related.


The first reaction she will have to it is God no please dont do this to me. Simple reaction because she is still numb from the shock of being forced to do something she didnt want in the first place. You have just added to this the fact that now for nine months she has carry around a constant reminder of what was done to her she is not allowed to heal at all. She can not even attempt to put it behind her for NINE months because as her belly grows so does the memorie of what exactly put it there.

Next reaction She will not want to look at herself in a mirror because she will see her belly growing and again will be forced to remeber, again something she desperatly wants to put behind her.

She will then begin to heard crying in her room cursing the baby and the man that put it there.

She will then try and kill herself and the baby inside her because those feelings are to much for her.

Before you even attempt to say this is a one in a millon case. A poll taken last year of 2000 women who were raped and for what ever reason either couldnt or wouldnt abort only 500 made it to to actually give birth. To me i think that is endangering the life of mother and baby.


DO YOU EVEN WATCH THE NEWS!!!! or are you just being ignorant because you can.

When we even threatned war over WMD he came out and said he had none. The weapons inspectors who went into Iraq to begin with stated 6months before we attacked that there were no weapons in Iraq. The UN's major contrys all said they would not go with us because of those weapon inspector reports. Blair and Bush ignored them saying that they had proof of exactly where they were. (Cnn report posted in november of last year on cnn. com.)

The US wrote the rules of the UN to eclare war. Blair and Bush then ignored those rules and tried to use presures to force the countrys to go with them.

There never were WMD we did not go because we beleived Sadam we went because Bush and blair told us Lies. We accused Germany France and a host of others who said no we would not help of cowerdice and turning on their allys. The whole time they were saying no we do not believe you we believe the UN weapons inspectors and who was right not the US.

[Dan]

I love how some of you praise Bush, and what he's done/doing. I'm fairly sure some of you are just getting out into the world and your personal freedome is saying alot right now, but there are alot of people who have been out there, we've seen alot that has taken place and we pay attention to whats going on.

Personally myself, I haven't turned the news on for a few weeks now just out of utter disgust. Most of the time when I'd turn it on, I'd see Bush with Daddy right there behind him. I've actually come to wonder who IS running this country.

Now, keeping in mind that Bush Sr. brought about desert storm, why wouldn't baby Bush try to continue/finish what daddy started? It only took a reason for this to happen and he got it when 9/11 came.

As for our economics, When Clinton was in office the US actually got into the black. Along comes Bush and BAM were in the red so friggen far again it isn't funny. The answer to this was raise taxes on the majority and lower them for the minority. Hence greater tax cuts for the rich who could afford to pay, and lower cuts for the middle to lower classed. (with very very few exceptions such as the child credit) OK then, lets promote more jobs was the next step. I want one(1) person to tell me how in the hell can one person (the president) say that he is going to make more jobs. To me this is just an inconcievable joke. Sure some companies are given an incentive to open a few spots, but who really rakes the profit?

Moving on to rape/abortion. This is just a touchy subject all in it'self. This is why I tend to lean more onto the "free choice" side. For one, I'm a guy. There is no way in hell I will every carry a baby, Therefor What a woman wishes to do is HER decision. However, if it is a decision based on stupidity, such as "I'll look ugly" or "I don't want a baby" or something along those lines, then yes I'd considder that just a self centered act, but not murder, as for anything could happen to the fetus within those 9 or so months. Some people look at abortion as murder, is this to say that if a fetus was diagnosed with a disease such as A.I.D.S., or the mother ran a serious rish of death upon birthing the child she should be punnished for her decision? If you say yes, then I just feel sorry for you.

[dognapot]

just a quick interjection. saddam wasn't a threat to the US. in 2001 the bush administration echoed that truth, but for some reason went batty and reversed. thus, proving themselves wrong, starting a war and proving themselves wrong and right at the same time. the 2001 bush was right, the 2002 bush was wrong. odd eh? if you were to collect all the WMD's that have been found in iraq since march of last year you would be able to fit them all on a modestly sized stage, and the bulk of these weapons would be papers cited to prove saddam had the intention of acquiring or creating weapons at some time in the future when iraq could legally do so (ha ha ha, they were dreaming).

the weapons found thus far have been deteriorated warheads that out-date sanctions, thier own usability, and are empty. to compliment them are missiles that fly too far, but are unequipped with any payload. these missiles were actually being destroyed just days before the war began under UN supervision. then there are also weather balloon trailers that report conditions usefull to artillery that hasn't been found (these were sold to iraq by the UK). colin powell called these mobile weapons labs, but they're simply not suited for that use at all. then there's half a dozen pieces of a uranium enrichment apparatus, that couldn't possibly be used since israel would bomb the crap out of any nuclear site that holds even the potential to create weapons grade uranium (as they have done in the past). then there's a vial of botulinum B which occurs naturally in groundwater, and improperly canned foods. most popularly used in botox, it was dumped by the US military nearly two decades ago because it wasn't usefull in combat.

that's the score. if the US is afraid of that, then they obviously don't remember the first gulf war when iraq actually had missiles and warheads that worked, neuro-toxins, gasses, etc. and the US still knocked them over like a rag doll. put simply, only a fool would believe iraq was a threat to the us, only the gullible would believe it before the war, only a maniac would risk the lives of over 100,000 troops and a country's entire populace to for the sake of such insignifigant insecurities.

[Mec]

Yeah, free choice to murder!


Do I ever watch the news? Most of it's propaganda anyway.

Murder = worse than rape.


Maybe there is some classified information linking from 9/11 to Saddam, I wouldn't know.

Anyway, Saddam was breaking several UN regulations during 2002, and so was suspected of doing something illegal. According to Penguin, Saddam TOLD us he had the weapons too!

Oh, and you say it's not murder.

Look, what makes an unborn baby not human? According to the declaration of independence (or one of those thingies), all men are created equal.

Let me tell you something. A fetus has ALREADY been created, it just hasn't been born yet.

Abortion is a SELFISH, STUPID THING.

Edited by Mec, 19 July 2004 - 09:07 PM.

[dognapot]

yet another interjection. the 9/11 commission has found no links between iraq and 9/11, much to the dismay of the bush administration who have spent nearly three years now trying desperately to link the two in any way. also, links between iraq and terrorism have not been forthcoming in the same amount of time. the white house likes to believe that there is one, especially dick cheney, but the 9/11 commission (which has the same resources as cheney) can find no evidence that there ever was a collaborative relationship between iraq and al-qaeda. however, if cheney does have information that hasn't been given over to the 9/11 commission or any of the several other commissions investigating the white house's recent misdeeds, then cheney has even more explaining to do. all relevant information of that sort was supposed to have been turned over to the commission over a year ago.

on another note, while it was true saddam was believed to be in breach of UN resolutions, none of these resolutions granted any national body to use force against iraq. also, before the war began in march of 2003 iraq was fully cooperating with the UN and actively destroying illegal missiles which had no payload and were essentially really effective canon balls.

it's very obvious you don't watch the news or have any interest in current events. if you just feel it's all propaganda then feel free to form an opinion from the same sources that the news comes from.

edit: had to fix dick cheney's name. kept coming up as turnip.

Edited by dognapot, 20 July 2004 - 02:03 AM.

[Lich]

OK if abortion before the second trimester is murder. So is everytime you get blood drawn.

Before the second trimester it has no brain waves, and no heart beat if you as a human being have no brain waves or heartbeat you are dead. There fore the removing of the cells can not be murder as you can not kill something that is not yet alive.

Even if it is a selfish choice it is the persons choise as is it their body. NOT YOURS if you dont agree with it so be dont do it. But stay the HELL OUT OUR lives and leave everyone else to decide the gate of their bobies.

And since you have no clue what is happening in the world by your own statement since you dont watch the news i will no longer discuss of even read your posts that add no help or info to debate on. You have proven yourself idiotic and a Slave of a book that men claim was wrighten by god. So i will descuss no more.

The Beauty of the USA is a seperation between the church and the state. if you can not find resonable truth to back what you say and present it then i will not hear what you say on politics as, by your words you basing them on a bible and appliying that to politice is not just stupid it is illegal.

Edited by Lich, 20 July 2004 - 05:41 AM.

[Lady_Maha]

Mec, you are not a woman, you have never been raped. Keep the abortion discussion out of it unless you have been in that sort of situation. We are discussing politics, not morals. As for murder being worse than rape, I can tell you it's not. I would rather just be dead than get raped, because your life after rape is no life anymore. It takes you years to learn to live with it, if you learn to do so at all, and even then you will never forget.

Now for the political discussion:

What do I think of Bush? He's a joke. The man has an IQ of below 100, a history of alcohol problems and only is in office because of family relations. He has done the US no good so far. People who are poor get poorer, the rich get richer, and the almost extinct hard working middle class has to work harder yet to keep what they have.

It is proven by now (thanks to some people who revealed "classified" documents) that the Bush legislation knew about terrorist threats on 9/11, yet did nothing to prevent it.

It is also proven by now that the US went to war ith Iraq based on falsified information. All the documents that now show up with black marker all over them shoudl be proof enough. And the US government tried for the longest time by stopping that information from getting released to the public.

The reasoning behind the Iraq war keeps changing to Bush's needs as well it seems. At first it was because Saddam supposedly had chemical weapons. When none were found the reason was changed to Saddam hiding Al Quaida in Iraq. If you have checked into the history of the middle east over the past 50 years you will see that Saddam had precious little to do with Al Quaida, since he is anythign but an extreme muslim. Saddam was merely a dictator who in recent years oficially practiced his religion to get his people to support him. The true reason of the invasion is, and always will be, the black gold, oil. Why else would the US troops have secured the ministry of oil building before all else upon marching into Bagdad? Did they hope to find chemical weapons or Bin Laden there? I doubt it.

Now let us move on to the homosexual marriages....

You all have a problem with extremist muslims, yet most of you act like extremist christians, which is no better. Politics and religion should always be separated or we will return to the middle ages and might as well pick up on witch burnings again.
Having that said, you can not base the morality of gay marriages on your religion. Does a gay or lesbian couple hurt you when they decide to show to the world they belong together? No they don't. They merely declare that they will be there for each other and want the same rights and responsibilities as any other married couple. So why be so much against it? Because YOUR religion forbids it and declares it immoral? Maybe THEIRS doesn't. This is not a religious issue but a political one, keep it that way.

[ºßrêw§l«îéº]

/t mec stfu and be more sympathetic what would u do in the same situation??

[Vër§íðñ 1.0]

I didn't read the other ones.

I think it is wrong, that you can burn a American Flag, and get in very little trouble, but if you say God in school then your in a lot of trouble. I think it is wrong, that that you can't pray in school, or in school events like football.

I don't understand how abortion his allowd. All you are doing is taking babies lives. They haven't even got to live yet. How do you know that the baby you just killed wasn't going to grow up one day, and get us closer to world peace?

Gay/Lesbians should not be allowd to get married. It wasn't ment to be that way. A realtionship is spose to be between a Man and a Women, not 2 members of the same sex.

Bush? Bush is a fooking joke. The man knew about 9/11, and did nothing to stop it. Now he's at war trying to find weapons of mass destruction. Where are they? He's blew up everything in site, and no weapons of mass destruction, but I think he should find Osma and take his ass down. What he did on 9/11 was the most horriable thing I have seen in a long time.

Kerry? WTF! You could put a monkey to run aginst Bush, and he'd win, but not even Kerry is monkey enough to beat Bush, sadly enough, Bush is going to be back.

I was scrolling down, trying to find out how to spell something =x, and I saw that some idiot said that rape isn't bad as murder, or something stupid along them lines. I think anyone who rapes someone should be death row, and killed. It's sad that we live in a world, where you can rape someone, and hire Johny Concron (or whatever, or any of the other great lawers) and get away with it.

The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.

I support Death Row, if you kill someone, you should be killed back.

Edited by Vër§íðñ 1.0, 20 July 2004 - 03:31 PM.

[two]

hey dog, you hear the pentagon has some sources that might trace iran to 9/11? so i smell another possible invasion and puppet regime? ala 1991?

prayer in school: the argument is whether school lead prayer should be held. you can pray all you want at school functions, just as long as it's not lead by a school official. why, you ask? ok, here's this for a role reversal:
"ok men, it's city league, and we're going to win this game! we're going to punish them and send them home. no let's thank God for this oppurtunity, and kick some ass! everyone get out your prayer rugs. the far endzone is the direction towrds mecca. Frank, lead us in prayer."
you (the reader) being christian, is standing around, thinking, "what the hell is this? i don't have a prayer rug. i don't even know what mecca is."
at which point you get weird looks because you're not doing what everyone else is doing, and somehow you think you get cold shouldered during the game. ain't that a little mooseed up?
so yeah, pray all you want in school. it just can't be lead by a school official, that's all.

and i used to be for the death penalty, until i learned it takes 7 years from the verdict reading to the actuall carrying out of the punishment. this is to allow for retrials, surprise witnesses and such. which is ok, becuase someone's life is on the line, let's be sure. then about a year or so ago, a lot of suspects that were committed had to be set free because of errors in DNA testing. some of those suspects were already six feet under. so now, with uncertanty up in the air, and with prison life as hard as it already is, i'm kinda leaning towards life. that, or ship them off to australia, just like the british did. and soon they will develope a country hated by aboriginals.

[Mec]

They deserve death, give it to them.

Bigger punishment = less crime.

[Mec]

Awright. maybe rape isn't as bad as murder.

Still, two wrongs don't make a right!

[Penguin]

man I was out of this a long time again and it's to boring to read all that so I'll just adressess(uh sp?) some quick points I noticed scimming it

#1: search for the actually 9/11 commission report and see what they wrote... then I hope you feel stupid

#2: rape is a horrible thing, and I do think rapest should be put to death

#3: BUT I stand by what I said, RAPE DOES NOT CONSTITUTE MURDERING AN INNOCENT why make the crime even more horrible

#4: about maha's post lmao what's an extreme muslim? having read a large portion of the koran, you can easily see it is a religon hate

#5: yes homos hurt the world. what they do is unhealthy and abnormal, non-chrisitian behavior. why do they insist on letting the world know they are gay... they have their civil unions, the only purpose of them having gay marriage is because they want to feel "normal" WELL GOD DAMN IT THEY AREN'T

#6: was saddam destroying his missiles? maybe so, but isn't it funny he coulding account for TONS AND TONS of anthrax


ok I'm done here probly won't check back for a day or two again

Edited by Penguin, 20 July 2004 - 10:55 PM.

[Mec]

Yeah, didn't Colin Powell have some evidence of some anthrax or something and he brought it to a UN meeting or something?

[Penguin]

he had a list of things he was suppose to account for back in... february (?) before the war and bush said if he didn't account for it in 30 (?) days there would be war

(don't recall the dates 100%, to busy to check atm)

now I'm really gone =P

[Vodka]

I don't understand how abortion his allowd. All you are doing is taking babies lives. They haven't even got to live yet. How do you know that the baby you just killed wasn't going to grow up one day, and get us closer to world peace?

Gay/Lesbians should not be allowd to get married. It wasn't ment to be that way. A realtionship is spose to be between a Man and a Women, not 2 members of the same sex.

First off... you're NOT a female. You'd never be the victim to this. If you were a female.. and were raped... you'd want to have an abortion too. Because you'll be living with the fact of that baby being from someone who made you feel degraded. It may be murder, but.. it'd be the only time I'd have an abortion. Whether you have an abortion or not with being raped.. you're still going to feel degraded.. filthy.. afraid... if not worse.. possibly living it with the rest of your life.

I don't see why people get so touchy about this. If you're not gay.. and aren't wanting to marry your partner.. then there'd be no reason for you to say if it'd be wrong or not. I don't feel as if it is wrong. It's not concerning you, so why make it this big deal? If you're in love.. and wanting to marry each other.. then I say.. go for it.. it being same sex marriage or not.

Worry about your own problems.. instead of others.

[dognapot]

i don't know what you're referring to penguin, with the 9/11 commission, but i know what i've been referring to. however i don't dismiss the possibility of the 9/11 commission saying opposing possibilities simultaneously exist. it's a fashionable thing to do now-a-days. however just last month the commission stated that there is no credible evidence that such a collaboration existed.

as for saddam's list. it was a big list of all the weapons iraq has had, and when they got them, who they got them from etc. of course, the US intercepted this 10,000 page document and censored it for "security reasons". this is probably the admission of wmd's that many like to believe it credible. alas, it is not. it is a record of purchases. beyond that is only saddam's lies. you see, to the US iraq says it destroyed all thier weapons, to iraq's population saddam's line the opposite. now we know what what should have been obvious long ago, saddam's weakened regime only had cruelty and fear at it's disposal. while it's true much is unaccounted for, you do also have to question how much the weapons listed in that document were used in desert storm, and the iran-iraq war. the document, in my opinion, was just a trick. no one expected saddam to account for the status of all of iraqs weapons that iraq was known to have had, and the weapons that the world accused them of having, it was impossible but a conveniant entrapment for two countries that had decided long ago to invade iraq.

[Lady_Maha]

#3:  BUT I stand by what I said, RAPE DOES NOT CONSTITUTE MURDERING AN INNOCENT why make the crime even more horrible

Rape constitutes murdering the soul of an innocent and letting the body live on. I believe that rape is the worse crime. As I said before, unless you have been in that particular situation, do not judge those who have been for the decisions they made afterwards. Fetuses miscarried before the seond trimester aren't entitled to a proper burial, they are simply disposed of in the hospital waste, so fight for the right of a burial as well. Fact is, no woman should be forced to have a 24/7 reminder of her degradation for 9 months. The majority of doctors will agree that that woman's mental health is in extreme danger if she is forced to carry out the pregnancy, punishing her even more.

#4:  about maha's post lmao what's an extreme muslim?  having read a large portion of the koran, you can easily see it is a religon hate

Your point here is what exactly? That you do not know the difference between extreme and non-extreme muslims? I have read a large chunk of the koran as well, and I can assure you that it is open to interpretation, just like the bible is. Muslim extremists will force their women to cover themselves up while others dress just as we do, muslim extremists believe in holy war (Jihad) against non-believers, while others believe in peace. Now to compare: Christian extremists will force people to live by their dictates (see next part of my post about gay rights). They will try their best to destroy the separation of govenrment and church by trying to have christian beliefs turned into laws, they will try to get non-christian religions banned from their country.

#5: yes homos hurt the world.  what they do is unhealthy and abnormal non-chrisitian behavior.  why do they insist on letting the world know they are gay... they have their civil unions, the only purpose of them having gay marriage is because they want to feel "normal"  WELL GOD DAMN IT THEY AREN'T

Unhealthy? How is it any more unhealthy than having unprotected hetero sex? In case you havan't noticed, STDs like AIDS can be spread amongst heterosexual people as well. Besides, what makes everything non-christian abnormal? Have I found a christian extremist here again? I am Taoist, I feel offended that non-christian behavior is considered abnormal. I don't judge non-taoist behavior as abnormal, so what gives you the right to judge other religions when you live in a country that has freedom of religion as a constitutional right? It may not be normal in your eyes, but to them and a lot of other people it is. Fact is, it will not physically or mentally hurt you to let them get married. You do not have to let them enter your church or house, all that will happen is that those two people who are in love will have all rights and responsibilities of a married couple (inherit from one another, support one another after a possible divorce, etc.), which in no way affects YOUR life.

#6: was saddam destroying his missiles? maybe so, but isn't it funny he coulding account for TONS AND TONS of anthrax

CNN reported today that the tons and tons of anthrax you are talking about never existed to begin with. I call that propaganda to invade a country.

[Lich]

Since there was some confusion on what this was i thought i would do a few things to help out the Ignorant people.

Main Entry: ex·trem·ism
Pronunciation: ik-'strE-"mi-z&m
Function: noun
1 : the quality or state of being extreme
2 : advocacy of extreme political measures : RADICALISM
- ex·trem·ist /-mist/ noun or adjective

Above is the dictionary meaning from websters dictionary Notice they say nothing of religion, But made a point of of saying advocacy of extreme political measures : RADICALISM. So since some people are to dense to understand that i will now put examples.


Muslim Extremist;

9-11

The USS cole

MARIVELES, Philippines

Remember that American kidnapping? No? You're in good company. But Abu Sayyaf has kidnapped and even killed other Americans in the Philippines as well.
Before 9/11, Americans tended to slough off overseas terrorist attacks on Americans, our embassies, and even our soldiers, sailors and Marines. Such attacks were merely passing outrages somewhere out there beyond our borders, and indifference allowed our enemy to thrive and grow. With the War on Terror slipping steadily in the polls as an important issue to voters, that is something to think about.

But we spend out time chasing terrorists over seas in other lands. I say we need to get the ones in our own, who do I mean. well now my next examples.

Christian Extremists;

NEW YORK 26 Oct 98 - A sniper shot and killed an abortion doctor at his home outside Buffalo, New York

27 Oct 98 NZ Herald Abortion rights activists said Dr Slepian's name was on an Internet Website list of abortionists underneath a graphic of dripping blood and a heading said a line through a name represented a "fatality." His name was crossed out on Saturday, soon after he was killed.


--Anti-choice activist and convicted murder Paul Hill*, on his double murder of Dr. John Britton and volunteer clinic escort James Barrett. Good Morning, America, 7/94 stated today. "This is against god and there fore all should be removed from this world."

--New Hampshire anti-choice zealot, Andrew Cabot, New Hampshire Sunday News, 1/1/95

"More violence is inevitable, and it is righteous." "It wouldn't bother me if every abortionist in the country today fell dead from a bullet."

--Charles Roy McMillan. Time 3/27/95

The Christian right

I listed more of the christian terrorists than the muslim and here is why of all them I typed the following things.

Muslim extremist attacks in the US. I got 9/11
Muslim attacks against americans. I got a whole load the first two being Cole and the philipenes. it was 4 pages worth pretty inpressive.

christian extremist attacks against Abortion clinics in the US. I got 427 pages.
christian extremist attacks against Gays in the US. I got 1525 pages

Yet we claim that the terrorists we need to worry about are the muslim extremists. Fact Christian extremists in the United states have killed more people in one years time than were killed in the towers or the pentagon on 911. Yet America claims that the Muslim religon is bad, and only produces terrorists, free your mind what do think.

[Cule]

about this abortion ... heh the kid inside doesnt lose anything because IT hasnt tasted life yet so wtf if it "dies" or not ... its more traumatic for the mother ...

look at it this way if you ( for example ) got pregnant unintended and you are not sure you could provide him/her a decent life because you are poor/gonna divorce or something YOU SHOULD GET AN ABORTION living poor and with parents that have problems so that they cant look after a child is very hard for the child believe me i know ... theres nothing wrong with abortion if you dont have what it takes to raise a child.

Yet we claim that the terrorists we need to worry about are the muslim extremists. Fact Christian extremists in the United states have killed more people in one years time than were killed in the towers or the pentagon on 911. Yet America claims that the Muslim religon is bad, and only produces terrorists, free your mind what do think.

well look at northern ireland theres some religious extremists with ak-47:s yay *dakka dakka*

Edited by Cule, 20 July 2004 - 10:32 PM.

[two]

the legality of the abortin issue takes on a strict definiton of "life". to determine if someone was deceased, a doctor would hold a mirror up to the patient's nose to see if there was any moisture, which would note breathing. no moisture = no life, person was declared deceased.

now that medical technology has advanced tremendously, we have machines that can pump our blood, regulate hormones, and even breathe for us. the lower brain functioning needed to keep our lungs breathing, keep our hearts pumping, and tells us when to expell urine is no longer needed...machine can do all of these things for us. so when is a person dead? if they are still breathing, aren't they alive? if their heart is still beating, don't they live? if their brain is no longer active, but their body still operates, at what point do we say they have exceeded their life?

according to my brother, who is attending temple medical school for cardio surgery, he says the determining factor for life is brain activity. today all fifty states and the District of Columbia follow the UDDA in recognizing whole-brain death -- irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain -- as a legal standard of death. The UDDA doesn't jettison the cardiopulmonary standard, however.
the interesting point is the higher brain activity definition of death. if someone's lower brain stem still operates (the portion that mediates spontaneous breathing and cardiatric activity), while the higher portion of the brain no longer operates (consciousness), then the patient is in an irreversable coma, or permanent vegetative state (PVS). at this point, the family may chose to discontinue regulatory medical attention, thus a "mercy killing", and there would be no homicide or murder acuzations at all.
using this standard we look at the opposite side of the spectrum, mesuring life instead of death. holding the same standards, the brain of a child acheieves semi-conscious levels of brain activity a little after the second trimester (6 weeks). this is why the current law forbids any abortions after the 2nd trimester, as it would be homocide of a "living" being in the eyes of the law.

this is the law. we've heard advocates, and those who oppose this law, saying it's murder (most of which don't really present any arguments, just banter on repeating the same message), then there's other advocates, arguing that a living being is one that a seperate body altogether. these people believe that a baby isn't alive until it is birthed, and seperate from the mother. i see this is just as extreme as the other end, saying the child is alive upon conception in the uterus, when the gametes form into a zygote.

anyways, i believe that this is the most moral and accurate way to define life. hopefully i've been thourough enough. and to anyone who says the decision lies soley on the woman is pretty rash in their judgement, as it should be both the decision of the father and the mother. whether their arguments are weighted evenly or not is up to speculation, however.

[Mec]

about this abortion ... heh the kid inside doesnt lose anything because IT hasnt tasted life yet so wtf if it "dies" or not ... its more traumatic for the mother ...

look at it this way if you ( for example ) got pregnant unintended and you are not sure you could provide him/her a decent life because you are poor/gonna divorce or something YOU SHOULD GET AN ABORTION living poor and with parents that have problems so that they cant look after a child is very hard for the child believe me i know ... theres nothing wrong with abortion if you dont have what it takes to raise a child.

This is like saying killing retarded (mentally impaired) people is ok. Murder is MURDER!

If you don't have what it takes to raise a child:

1. don't have sex. IF you're not ready to raise a child, you're not ready for it.
OR
2. put it up for adoption

[Charon]

This is like saying killing retarded (mentally impaired) people is ok. Murder is MURDER!

If you don't have what it takes to raise a child:

1. don't have sex. IF you're not ready to raise a child, you're not ready for it.
OR
2. put it up for adoption

Firstly, I don't see where that is being said at all.

Secondly... many people are taking this debate seriously... and indeed they should because it's a serious matter.
But it only serves to make me wonder if you are capable of logical debate. Could you please try reading these things with some human emotion? Then see if you still have the heart to be so blunt... and if you do, please legitimise your statements somehow.

Your responses are not only basic... but cold.
It's not as simple or as easy as you seem to think it is.

[Mec]

Good vs. Evil, everything comes down to that.

Now, what's so 'cold' and 'blunt' about my posts, how should I say what I want to say?

I say, abortion is murder:

"all men are CREATED (not born) equally", therefore, an infant who's been born should have the same rights as one who is not. You can't kill new-born infants. You shouldn't be able to kill unborn babies.

In rape cases, two wrongs don't make a right.

If you don't want a child, too bad for you. If you're not ready to have one, don't doggone take the risk! If you made a mistake (ooops), either deal with it, or adopt it. You have to FACE THE CONSEQUENCES of POOR ACTIONS. In my opinion, having a baby is not a poor action, but if you didn't want to do it, TOUGH! When you kill someone, you get put in jail (and should be killed). When you steal something, you can go to jail or pay a fine. When you have a child you don't want, you have to raise it, want him or not. I can understand rape cases, how they'd hate to have the child, still, two wrongs don't make a right!

Abortion is as evil as murdering, it's harmful to America because it makes our population die. When I'm an old man, I want there to actually be people to take care of my social security. Why do I have to pay for it?

So pretty much, abortion is an evil, selfish, harmful, and unfair action.
It harms an innocent child, it harms America, which, in turn, harms you, and ME! It's unfair! Stop it! It should be illegalized!

I hope that wasn't to 'blunt' or 'simple' for you.

Most of this post I had already posted before, but I combined them to be 'less blunt'.

[dognapot]

mec, i believe that the "created equal" thing is actually refering to the human design giving every individual equal potential that should not be hindered by government. just my interpretation there. also, you know the rest of that sentence?

that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness

who endowed these rights? if i were to follow your logic, the capital C creator would be two people having sex. however, i think the creator here, doing the creating is actually the creator of the human design and not just sperm and eggs.

[Lich]

Mec what she means is stop using your religion as a base. beleive what you beleive but find a reason that doesnt use your relgion as a sole final line. Its wrong because the bible tells us so.

Im pagen so that simple logic means nothing to me. The fact is in your religion it is all black and white, good and evil. In mine there is no black or white its not that easy. the world is grey as all men and women can be both good and evil. Christians preach goodness and then turn around and blow up buildings with lots and lots of people in it. Muslims do the same, there for they show both good and evil making then grey.

The united states was founded with a right to choose. Your life, your religion and carreer, These are things that are totally opposite to christianity who dictates. My way or hell. Your relgion says its wrong but there is no scientific proof and i dought for even a second you have read the arguements against you fully. They have all answered you Myself included.

You bring no answers to theirs with proof of what you say other than the beliefs held in your bible, a Book that is only worth more than the paper it is wrighten on to christians. The row vs wade decision came about when the supreme court reconised that christian beleifs can not dictate the beliefs of the rest of the country as they are not the same as everyone else, and can not at times even agree with in theirselves. You dont agree with it fine dont do it, You dont beleive its right then dont do it and no one in your relgion or the state says you have to, but you are given the right to choose.

You would destroy one of the greatest princables that the United states was founded on by taking away that right from others who choose another path. Now i said before i will not answer someone whos arguements were nothing more than reteric, I broke that by answering here but i will break it no more. If you can not produce Statistical proof to back what you are saying, Or some evidence that doesnt involve the belief contained your religion then I will consider the debate as won by the majority who are all saying the same things.

[Lady_Maha]

Well Mec, two wrongs don't make a right in your opinion. In other words, no human shoudl be allowed to kill another, because killing someone is murder. You are also a patriot from what I have seen. Now tell me how you can possibly be one, seeing that in your country juries commit murder by sentencing people to death, cops shoot criminals and soldiers go to war. Where do YOU draw the line of who is allowed to live and who isn't? If you go by your belief only, those people have no right to kill anyone either.

Besides, abortion in rape cases is not in any case perfomed to make things "right", since you can't make rape "right" again, it is performed to ease the pain of the victim. Carrying out the pregnancy endangers the victim's life, if not physically, then mentally, and if I remember correctly you said you would agree to abortion if life was in danger. Trust me when I tell you that abortion is not an easy thing to go through, and that most women will not take it lightly. I myself look down at women who look at it as another form of birth control and have 4 or 5 abortions simply because they are too dense to go on the pill or use condoms, however, a rape victim has her life changed permanently forever. The victim should be allowed to choose whether a part of herself is given to create new life, not the rapist. By forcing her to carry out the pregnancy that is exactly what you allow.

This reminds me of the war in Bosnia, where Serbish men kidnapped muslim women and raped them until they got pregnant and forced them to carry out those children before lettign them go again. By the muslim religion those women are defiled, and in most cases their families won't take them in anymore. It's people like you who ruined the life of those women, people like you who didn't let them choose when to give part of themselves to create new life.

[Stotic]

Politically, I'm a liberal Republican.

I support Bush based on fact that Kerry's no savior. Considering he's the most liberal guy in the senate.

I don't support prayer in schools because to tell you the truth I'm not crazy about organized religion.

I respect homosexuallity. Let them do what they 'wanna' do.

I support abortion most definately. I don't believe a person becomes alive until they are "born into this world." As a fetus they are still a part of the woman. They are not a citizen of any nation. Mec, how is being raped making a wrong considering it was not a decision to begin with? The only reason most people are against abortion is because of their religion. Like you. You're just trying to interpret the constitution to fit your beliefs. Leave it to the judges. Also the many arguments of anti-abortionists here consist of making our population fall. Give me hard evidence that abortion is causing our population to fall. Give hard evidence that our population is even falling. Trust me the last thing we need to worry about is stuffing more people in our nation. The world's population will increase no matter what unless some freak disaster happens. The only way our nation's population would descrease would be because of a political decision causing people to leave.

[Mec]

I never said BEING raped was a wrong. Raping someone IS.

Criminals should be executed in order to prevent further harmful actions, because in any jail there's a chance of escape. They deserve death. they've already proven that they are harmful to society. What did a doggone baby ever do?

Even if babies aren't a citizen of your country, does that make if right or ok to kill them? Should we be allowed to kill illegal aliens? Oooh the French! Let's get them!

Now

Murder is not as simple as killing. It is killing someone with malicous(sp?) intent. Executing people is not murdering. Aborting is!