90 replies to this topic

[Medora]

The argument that being gay is against nature is actually pretty absurd if you know anything about it. There are hundreds on hundreds of gay animals in nature. Ive been actively participating in a gay rights debate on an adult forum, and given a few minutes I will find the link to the research of gay animals. Ok well seeing as how that forum is Massive, I cant seem to find the page that had the link. If you look it up on the internet, Im sure you will find it. Its a very common thing in nature actually, and I do remember something about at least 150 known species of just birds alone being gay. This does not include the research on gay monkeys, rinos, ducks, even those in the cat kingdom. We all know dogs have gay tendencies. Theres many cases of gay animals reported in zoos and in the wild. Its just a matter of knowing your research.


I looked it up and found it. http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htm

[Deval]

Lol, I'll believe that when I see factual evidence. That is the most absurd thing I have ever read. The only animal activity that could be classified as actively homosexual is that of the Bonobo chimpanzee, who when it finds itself in a highly stressful situation, responds by finding the nearest other Bonobo and proceeds to hump it regardless of gender and relation.

[S3it0*]

i voted let them marry, i personally see NOTHING wrong with it, and also personally, I myself am Bi-Sexual, and if I found the right person be it girl/guy, and i wanted to spend the rest of my life with him/her I would be GUTTED(for lack of better words) to find out that I could not marry. However, like Vagabond says, I live in New Zealand, and this isnt happening here, so I guess im stuck. Anyway bottom line, I see nothing wrong with gay marriages.

[Xlithan]

i couldn't care less really, which is why i voted i don't care at all. I simply choose to let this world go on ranting about useless crap, destroying itself, and one day there will be a HUGE civil war destroying all man kind....yay i reckon we all become hippies and stop this MADNESS!!!

there is no such thing as god, jesus, mary, joseph and all that crap. I believe in freedom, not having to choose a certain path to follow, be ruled by. There is nothing wrong with being gay, im not gay myself but hell, if people wanna do it then cool, and people who are open about it, good on you, be proud of what you are. But i choose not to be involved in the arguments and crap that goes on in the world simply because there is NO END to it all.

I ask, WHY.... WHY do we need to fight? WHY do we need to reject others because of how they look, or what sex they are attracted to? a person is a person, dumb as the rest of us, but average all the same. There are no rights or wrong to human life, no normallity to our race, each person unique in their own way. But what are we doing? we are putting people down, fighting amongst ourselves? don't people realise that if we worked together as a world, as a race, we could build better environments for each other?

Now, i hate old people... why? because they believe in doing everything the old way. no equal rights and all that crap. "respect your elders. goto bed at a certain time. get up early in the morning. dress normal. BE normal. Boys don't do that. Girls don't do this. when i was your age blah blah blah...". I think im some ways the world has become better because people are more open and accept others the way they are, one being people who are gay, bisexual, lesbian or whatever.

WHAT IS NORMAL? WHAT IS RIGHT? WHAT IS WRONG?

[Bean]

ORGANIZED Religion is a restraint on the mind, and the body. I believe in Choice.

Any human being has the capability to think, and act as an individual. ORGANIZED Religion is just a way to control people, and make them all walk the same lines. ORGANIZED Religion, even though you may not wish to actually admit it, controls the way you think and act. How anyone can participate in something that restricting to your freedom as a human being amazes me....

ORGANIZED Religion is just a reason/excuse to fall back, and cease all rational thought or movements. Its a safety restraint for the lazy who have no direction in their life, and I will not have any part of it.

NOW, I DO have an open mind, and if given any semblence of truth behind these ORGANIZED Religions, would most likely re-consider my ways. Ok.... Probably not, but I would put serious consideration into it. I'm not an anti-religious zealot or something stupid like that....

And about the gay marriages, I can see how it wouldnt be 'Allowed' by the churches seeing as marriage HAS been a part of the church for a long time. Times change though, and so does the human race as a whole. If everyone is in such a fuss about them being bonded under 'marriage' then I say we create another 'Bonding of the body and the soul' for gays solely. Heterosexuals can stick with their marriages, and all the rights they think are theirs alone... Gays should be able to unite with one another under LOVE, not some bullnuts pretty much powerless word like 'marriage'.

I dont know if that was entirely.... Un-hypocritical *If thats not a word, it is now.* But hey what can you do....

Overview:Gays should be able to be bonded under SOMETHING, weather that be marriage, or some other form of legal bondage.

Thanks

Edit:Left a part out.... whoops

Edited by Bean, 26 February 2004 - 08:36 AM.

[two]

wow, that was some pretty hurtful stuff. you took some pretty level ideas and managed to constrew them into your own misguided ideals. squig, you make me laugh, esp when you contradict yourself so hard. you make a vote that you don't care (which is a funny cuz if ya didn't care, you'd stop reading this post after the title), saying you don't want to get involved right before you fire off a couple more paragraphs. ha, that's amusing.

and why post such hurtful things like, "there's no Jesus, or God"? it's cool to believe whatever you wanna, but to go out and hate on people's beliefs is mean, and contradictory to your post. you say that you're an open minded guy, that they shouldn't be discriminated. but it's ok, and proper to discriminate religious people? hmmm.

you say there are no right or wrongs to human life? i think you're wrong. i think it's wrong to kill other folk, to rape people, to steal, basic stuff like that. basic stuff that's taught in some religions. true, there's a lot of zany rules in most of the big religions, but most people are not zealots, and follow most of the good ones. look to college campuses, where there's an interesting combination of liberal ideals (ones that i think you can identify with, like abortions, gay rights, equal right, so on) and religious views.

and bean, you asked how can anyone participate in anything that restricts their freedoms? yeah, that's actually a good question. but i kinda like certain restrictions. i like walking down the street knowing people are restricted from taking my wallet. i like a law restricting a person from running a red light a totaling my car. yeah, those restrictions are good.

yeah religion first came about to organize people. but organizing people is a good thing. putting our minds together yeailds results more effieciently than having 20,000 people working on 20,000 different thigs at once. and it's not like we're mindless automotans following what the big giant head tells us to do. i believe in choice myself. every single decision is made by my own cognition. i don't look at a leaf and say, "oh, God put that there." the only thing i know of is that God loves me. He probably had some hand in making the universe, i don't know...maybe he'll tell me when i get there.

the point is that organized religion teaches basic principals, most of which do humanity a lot of good. some points are dated an taken out of context, those of which are voiced the loudest. to this day, i think organized religion does more good than harm. yeah there were a lot of wars, but there's also a lot of advancements drawn from religion, and nowadays the power three raise more charity than wars. you don't hear about it, but think of all the homeless shelters, the christmas gift drives, the dispersement of funds to those less privalaged.

wow, i got all wrapped up again. but you guys aren't really the solution to the problem of ridding the world of assess, assess.

[Zylia]

(Just replying mainly to what 'two' said, didn't feel like quoting)

For one point, he never said "Believing in Jesus is ridiculous and anyone who does is a bloody fool!" He said that he believes there is no jesus, etc, etc. He's' allowed to do that and he's not 'hating on you'. It's called Atheism my dear friend and its highly allowed in the great nation we live in. He isn't discriminating against you, he's stating his beliefs. In a way its like you telling him "There IS a Jesus, there IS a God" Then you're infringing on his rights if he wants to believe in nothing, so simmer down bud.

As in Medora's post about homosexuality in animals, animals also do all the natural things such as: "kill other folk, to rape people, to steal" You'd be amazed how much that happens in nature. Other animals kill other animals for protection, food, even cats sometimes kill birds out of boredom. Does this sentence all animals to a life of sin because they aren't religious? lol Look at some of the more wild animals. A pack of wild animals will come and steal a meal from a lion in the jungle (im sure everyones seen something to that degree on the Discovery Channel). And don't get me started on rape, though I do believe its incredibly wrong to do its an everyday occurance for a animals. It's all things that in nature ... occur naturally. Yes our laws against these type of things are important but you can't define the actions as wrong to "human life". It's morality is all and thats what us humans were gifted with. You can't say that being 'Gay' is a wrong in life. Sometimes being gay is out of the persons control. They're born that way. People just want to live their lives and be happy, so what if they go to hell for it under your beliefs, how is that going to affect you? Let them live for themselves and you mind your own lifestyle. You ought respect them as human beings instead of degrading them.

Also, the gay marriage issue will become an amendment. Not a law. The difference?:

When passed, an amendment cannot be challenged by the Supreme Court... Why is that? Because if a Gay Marriage Ban is added to the constitution, the Supreme Court in effect cannot rule any discrimination against gay marriage 'unconstitutional'.... because its in the constitution. That is one of the main things I'm annoyed with. Abortion, Polygamy(sp) and many other highly controversial issues have been taken to the Supreme Court. I think Bush is just trying to avoid conflicts with the supreme court and I think he knows that a federal law wouldn't do jack. So why not just make it 100% legal under the constitution?...

[Xlithan]

wow, that was some pretty hurtful stuff. you took some pretty level ideas and managed to constrew them into your own misguided ideals. squig, you make me laugh, esp when you contradict yourself so hard. you make a vote that you don't care (which is a funny cuz if ya didn't care, you'd stop reading this post after the title), saying you don't want to get involved right before you fire off a couple more paragraphs. ha, that's amusing.

and why post such hurtful things like, "there's no Jesus, or God"? it's cool to believe whatever you wanna, but to go out and hate on people's beliefs is mean, and contradictory to your post. you say that you're an open minded guy, that they shouldn't be discriminated. but it's ok, and proper to discriminate religious people? hmmm.

you say there are no right or wrongs to human life? i think you're wrong. i think it's wrong to kill other folk, to rape people, to steal, basic stuff like that. basic stuff that's taught in some religions. true, there's a lot of zany rules in most of the big religions, but most people are not zealots, and follow most of the good ones. look to college campuses, where there's an interesting combination of liberal ideals (ones that i think you can identify with, like abortions, gay rights, equal right, so on) and religious views.

what Zylia said. and how do you know it's not RIGHT to kill? Animals kill each other for food, competition over sex, and if i'm not mistaken, we ARE animals, so shouldn't it be in our nature to kill one another, just like a normal animal? i see birds ripping each others throats out while a female watches, is that right? of course it is, it's nature. I'm not saying "hey, lets all kill nuts coz its natural", and to be honest, i wasnt REALLY talking about that anyway, i was mainly directing my post to how people are, what they wear, what sex they are attracted to, what religion, if any, they believe in, there is no right and wrong for those things. But hey, flame me, everybody else does, nothing new here.

[Zylia]

Obviously you didn't, doing it with someone of the same sex and being gay is something completely different. Animals just do it with who they can, that doesn't mean they're gay. (I heard about dogs doing women, whats the word for that?  )

Being gay in the human world means loving someone from the same sex. Which doesn't happen with animals.

It's just a matter of knowing your research.

Mk, Dr. Dolittle

[Issy]

OK, first off homoesexuality is something your born with. Its been proven that men and women alike are missing a gene which makes them homosexual.

SECOND, animals don't do it with whatever they can, they have to be attracted, hence why animals go into 'heat' Male animals CANNOT go into heat.

THIRD, about the church argument, Marriage came before the church, so that argument willnot work.

FOURTH, homosexuals have just as much right to marry someone of the same sex as we have of marrying someone of the opposite sex. If you feel uncomfortable around the, grow up and step away from them. What they do in their own house is something that shouldn't matter to you, or to anyone.

[Wolfgang]

First of all, i did not intend to weight the polls. I posted a variety. It was origionally going to be 3. Support, Dont support, and dont care. But the others were mainly with the intent of getting more specific opinions or reasons. It occured to me that people may not want to share their specific reasons or opinions. But also, i picked the kinds of opinions that I have encountered most.

in response to Angelus' post of animals not being gay.... some animals are. There are some animals that mate for life. I worked at a pet store, where we had these two birds in, who had life mated. And they were both males. When one of them died, the other one stopped eating. It became sullen and vicious, as opposed to its general good attitude of earlier. If thats not love, I dont know what love is.

Also, I agree with the earlier post by Medora. If you cant handle this as an adult, do not respond. This post was created with the idea of gathering information, and having a discussion/debate. Not an argument. So yeah. Please be mature.

Also, I have to dissagree with Angelus again. Two animals of the same gender engaging in sexual intercourse is an act of homosexuality. I am not currently emotionally or physically involved with any other males right now. By your logic, this means that i am not a homosexual. But the fact that one can, does, could, or can engage in an act with another person of the same gender says something about their sexual identity.

There is a scale, which is supported by many homosexuals, including myself, called the Kinsey Scale, for measuring homosexuality. You would rate yourself somewhere between a zero, and a 6.

http://www.lgbtcampu...nsey_scale.html is the lin, though the basic conent of the site is:

0 - exclusively heterosexual

1 - predominantly heterosexual, incidentally homoexual

2 - predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual

3 - equally heterosexual and homosexual

4 - predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual

5 - predominantly homosexual, incidentally heterosexual

6 - exclusively homosexual

this is the rating. Homosexuality is very much a physical thing. Not entirely, but just as much physical, as it is emotional.

Blah. i'd write more, but i lose internet accessibility in under two minutes.

[Issy]

OK,  first off homoesexuality is something your born with. Its  been proven that men and women alike are missing a gene which makes them homosexual.

SECOND, animals don't do it with whatever they can, they have to be attracted, hence why animals go into 'heat'  Male animals CANNOT go into heat.

THIRD, about the church argument, Marriage came before the church, so that argument willnot work.

FOURTH, homosexuals have just as much right to marry someone of the same sex as we have of marrying someone of the opposite sex. If you feel  uncomfortable around the, grow up and  step away from them. What they do in their own house is something that shouldn't matter to you, or to anyone.

Actually no it isn't, its a hypothese it's not proven. Cause then what about people who are bi? They only have half the gene? Or if im not sure if im hetero or gay i could just get my genes 'checked'. Genes don't make the person, choices do.

So animals have to be attracted to eachother which makes them go into 'heat', but male animals can't go into 'heat'. Therefore male animals aren't attracted, which makes it that male animals do it with whatever they can. (not saying thats how it is, just pointing out that your little story didn't made any sense).

But it wasn't 'marriage' yet, cause marriage without a church isn't marriage. A commitment maybe.


And I agree with your fourth statement (not the marriage part tho). I don't give a damn about what they do, but i can still have an opinion about it.

Ok, it has been proven, read a science magazine. Yes, if they're Bi they're genes are somehow different. The person -DOESN'T- deciede, because they know what he/she wants to be.


Marriage is infact marriage without a church. People get married by Justices of the Peace, people get married in the woods, on the beach, outiside. Just because they aren't married in a church, or by a pastor doesn't mean isn't a marriage. Think about what you say before you say it nimrod.

and being over opinionated makes you out to be an asshole, so stfu.

[Issy]

What about when they're married by judges, or justices of the peace? THEY HAVE BEEN MARRIED. If church was the reason for marriage, it'd be politically incorrect, and there would be a whole religious issue, which doesn't go over well.

And apparently you don't read enough science magazines, it wasn't but 3-4 months ago and they proved it is genes.

[Zylia]

Thats why the government distributes 'Marriage Licenses' NOT commitment licenses.

[dognapot]

Ok, it has been proven, read a science magazine. Yes, if they're Bi they're genes are somehow different. The person -DOESN'T- deciede, because they know what he/she wants to be.


Marriage is infact marriage without a church. People get married by Justices of the Peace, people get married in the woods, on the beach, outiside. Just because they aren't married in a church, or by a pastor doesn't mean isn't a marriage. Think about what you say before you say it nimrod.

and being over opinionated makes you out to be an asshole, so stfu. 

Actually i read a lot of science magazines hence why i know that one day they say this and the next they say something different. I read a different explenation for being gay every month.

And actually that does mean it isn't marriage, its a commitment, marriage was made by the church.

But then again, come up with arguments to convince me. Cause a man who has never changed his opinion, is a man who has never learned a thing.

what church made marriage? i don't get it. marriage exists everywhere, and is not the exclusive creation of any one religion or culture. if marriage was invented a synagogue or church then did the rest of the world have to wait for christians or jewish tribes to wander into them before marriage occurred to these people?

[Deval]

You are thinking of mates, not brides & grooms. Whats wrong with 'life mates' or the likes?

[Squee]

I know I'm coming out of the blue here but it has to be said.

You cannot just hide behind The Bible and argue from there. Step out and stand your grand with pride. If you don't have confidence in your opinion, you don't have much of an opinion, do you? o_O

Anyways, back to my point:

If you are Christian (Catholic, Protestant, etc.), then you believe in the New and Old Testament. However, if you choose to follow both of these books, you cannot just pick and choose which ones you will believe - that's hypocritical. Even though you think being gay is wrong, I doubt you count your steps every Sunday just to make sure you're not "doing work." I doubt you stop your entire life come Friday evening to pray until Saturday sunset.

The Old Testament does not apply to the world today. It was written by people of the time and, therefore, contains their beliefs.

If you are truly a Christian, then you believe in living as Christ did (New Testament). Christ taught to love everyone equally. "Pray for your enemy rather than persecute them" and what-not.

You cannot condemn people simply for their sexual orientation. Remember the parable with the adultress? The adultress told Jesus that she had commited a sin. The village of people began to gather stones to kill her but Jesus stopped them. He said that only the one who had not commited a sin may cast the first stone. One by one, everyone left the village until only the adultress and Jesus were left.

Obviously, that story is trying to convey that we cannot judge one another. We are simply human, that is all.

So, if you believe that homosexuality is against The Bible, maybe you should take a second look. Hating gay people doesn't seem very Christ-like, does it?

[Consumed]

i happen to dissagree with gay marriage...but however i dont fully understand what is going on in there minds so i guess they kno whats right with them ...
but i just dont like when the try to push there choices that i dont agree with onto me...but overall i have to say i dissagree with gay marriages

[Deval]

My issue is the use of the word 'marriage'. Nothing else, nothing more than that, nada, zip.

[two]

However, if you choose to follow both of these books, you cannot just pick and choose which ones you will believe - that's hypocritical.

i'm not too clear on that, explain why you think so. you see, if a person would preach to follow all the rules of the Bible, and then pratice whichever rules she/he wants to participate it. i don't see how believeing what you want makes you a hypocrite.

hy·poc·ri·sies 1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness. 2. An act or instance of such falseness.
--taken from smarterchild

[two]

My issue is the use of the word 'marriage'. Nothing else, nothing more than that, nada, zip.

what if we call it "marrage"?

[Squee]

i'm not too clear on that, explain why you think so.

Hmm...let me try as best I can.

I assume you know who the Pharisees were?

Jesus called them hypocrites. They called themselves holy and what-not. They prayed, they followed The Bible, they did EXACTLY what they were supposed to do...according to The Bible (at least, some parts of it).

However, the Pharisees were not all good people. Although they were all extremely "holy," some of them saw themselves as better than the peasants. You could think of them as the bullies, thinking that they were better and ridiculing those who weren't "up to par."

Obviously, these Pharisees missed the part of The Bible where it says to treat others equally. "Do unto others" and what-not.

The same goes with people who are anit-gay. They take the one part of The Bible were it says you mustn't be gay but completely miss where it says that we are to love all people equally.

[Darkling]

I hav'nt read through every post, cant sit still long enough but heres my opinion:

Ok, for one... i have read some pretty far out ideas and concpets about homosexuality, im not "flamming" anyone here, but saying we are born with a -gene- that makes a us homosexual or not is kind of... bullnuts.

Homosexuality comes from the fact that we are human... we make these choices and attractions from events and/or influences that happen from early childhood to the age we are now. We cant help it, its the way we come to develop feelings for another person, sometimes being the same sex... but either way we cant really control the way we feel about another person.

It also seems that when people think about gay couples, they instantly think of only sexual acts... which is only -part- of being attracted to someone of the same sex, its not like these people want to be married to be able to say that it is moral to go at each other 24/7. And when i say "moral" i dont mean feeling as if they are going with the social laws of religion, but to feel right about whut they are doing.

About homosexuals and religion, i dont beleive in any form of religion or some giant being in the sky that will strike you dead if you commit a sin. The bible was created to keep people in line, and homophobic people who were scared of things they knew nothing about made sure that homosexuality was known as sin. Our goverment does rely strongly on religion no matter how much they define the meaning of division between church and state, when it comes right down to it our president and people before him go by the bible, and were raised to beleive that homosexuality is wrong; so naturally they are going to try and stop the freedom of same sex marraiges as marraige is seen as a holy commitment.

The main point is, that gay people should have the right to be married. Not to make a statement, but to have the same right as a normal couple to say to each other in an official manner that they will devote their lives to one another, "through sickness and health, for better or for worse, till death do you part", they they love each other. Plain and simple. Because they can love each other the same way as a man and woman can, and they do.

Another thing, comparing us to animals is just WRONG. We as the human race have more complex feelings than a "horny bunny", and as someone else said, animals dont care where they get it, as long as they can get off.

Edited by Darkling, 27 February 2004 - 03:38 AM.

[Bean]

Two, Notice my use of placing the word 'ORGANIZED' in bold... I do not like organized religions. Thats has absolutely nothing to do with civil laws, etc etc.

I didnt say I didnt like restrictions, I said I dont like religious restrictions...

[Wolfgang]

Ok, for one... i have read some pretty far out ideas and concpets about homosexuality, im not "flamming" anyone here, but saying we are born with a -gene- that makes a us homosexual or not is kind of... bullnuts.

Homosexuality comes from the fact that we are human... we make these choices and attractions from events and/or influences that happen from early childhood to the age we are now. We cant help it, its the way we come to develop feelings for another person, sometimes being the same sex... but either way we cant really control the way we feel about another person.

It also seems that when people think about gay couples, they instantly think of only sexual acts... which is only -part- of being attracted to someone of the same sex, its not like these people want to be married to be able to say that it is moral to go at each other 24/7. And when i say "moral" i dont mean feeling as if they are going with the social laws of religion, but to feel right about whut they are doing.

About homosexuals and religion, i dont beleive in any form of religion or some giant being in the sky that will strike you dead if you commit a sin. The bible was created to keep people in line, and homophobic people who were scared of things they knew nothing about made sure that homosexuality was known as sin. Our goverment does rely strongly on religion no matter how much they define the meaning of division between church and state, when it comes right down to it our president and people before him go by the bible, and were raised to beleive that homosexuality is wrong; so naturally they are going to try and stop the freedom of same sex marraiges as marraige is seen as a holy commitment.

The main point is, that gay people should have the right to be married. Not to make a statement, but to have the same right as a normal couple to say to each other in an official manner that they will devote their lives to one another, "through sickness and health, for better or for worse, till death do you part", they they love each other. Plain and simple. Because they can love each other the same way as a man and woman can, and they do.

Another thing, comparing us to animals is just WRONG. We as the human race have more complex feelings than a "horny bunny", and as someone else said, animals dont care where they get it, as long as they can get off.

I think that you make a few really good points in this statement. But actually, homosexuality is very much not a choice. I would not have chosen to go through any of the things that I have gone through. It is a geneting thing, TO AN EXTENT. Some people are born homosexuals, though the enviornment in which a person is raised can very much how they can turn out. A boy who is molested by a woman, while he is at a young age, is more likely to turn out homosexual, because he associates women with negative things. They psychological effects of sexual abuse (in the long term) can very much increase a persons sexual confusion and/or diversity. But in general, most homo/bi/transexuals have a completely different brain structure. We are created physically and psychologically different. Theres a lot more that i dont really have the time/energy to get into.

Sorry for the sporratic posting. This is my weekend off. I'll probably moniter stuff more closely, and have more time to post.

[Issy]

I hav'nt read through every post, cant sit still long enough but heres my opinion:

Ok, for one... i have read some pretty far out ideas and concpets about homosexuality, im not "flamming" anyone here, but saying we are born with a -gene- that makes a us homosexual or not is kind of... bullnuts.

Homosexuality comes from the fact that we are human... we make these choices and attractions from events and/or influences that happen from early childhood to the age we are now. We cant help it, its the way we come to develop feelings for another person, sometimes being the same sex... but either way we cant really control the way we feel about another person.

Read anything relating to biological science, or human body research, that was posted 3 months ago. Scientists will say it is a gene issue. therefore it isn't 'bullnuts'

[Medora]

Ive caught up on this conversation a bit, and I am glad to see that it is mainly staying civil. Restores just a touch of faith in the Nightmist community in my eyes Honestly, I dont believe that compairing us to animals is all that wrong really. Many species of animals mate for life, not just "get it where they can". Many humans mate for life, and many "get it where they can". When it all comes down, no matter how complex we believe ourselves to be, we are merely another type of animal.

Did you know that to this day that gays, aside from marriage, dont have equal rights? In the state I live in, if a police officer walked in on a gay couple..."Looking for an age appropriate word here" being intimate, that they could arrest them? Yes, it is still in the law books here that people of the same sex sharing intimate moments are breaking the law. How sad is that? I hope those of age will understand what I mean by my statement.

My overall opinion being simply stated is this: Everything you feel is nothing more than a chemical reaction. Emotions, pain, chemical reactions. Thats all it is. Love, chemical reaction. Sexual attraction, chemical reaction. This being the case, if a person is sexually attracted to another person, or loves another person, it is not their choice, it is a chemical reaction. I didnt choose who Ive loved in my lifetime. It happened without my consent. I didnt choose who I was attracted to either, it just happened. If this is how it is for me, and Im assuming everyone else, what makes it any different for gays?

By the way, Ive been married before and it had absolutely nothing to do with a church. We went to a hospital to get blood work done, then took the blood work results, our birth certificates, and picture ids to the court house. Then we stood before a Judge who said "by the power vested in me by the **state of Oklahoma** and it was done. I also live in a state where there is no reason needed for divorce. Churches are against divorce. Here you walk into a court house, say I want a divorce, they say ok, stamp the papers, and you are divorced. Granted alot of places you still have to show proof as to why you want a divorce, and it has to be a valid reason, but you can still Get a divorce. Maybe marriage started as a church thing, but I plainly remember studying in school different wedding ceremonies from times before christianity. So maybe it was something the church just adopted. Either way, either they need to amend the definition of marriage to let gays be able to participate, or they need to have their own ceremony that gives them the same benefits of marriage. Im not to sure about the second of that though, because how is giving them their own form of marriage different than "we sit at the front of the bus, your kind sits at the back"