41 replies to this topic

[Abstract]

Firstly lets get this clear.

Do not flame in any way. Do not slander or harrass staff in any way. Do not flame other players for there views.

Please post your thoughts on the stamina gains, and where you think they should go.

Within the next 7 days we will make a decision based on this topic if it stays civil.

[Eternyte]

Berserker: 1 4 9 16 23 29 35 40 (Already do a shed load of damage, are awesome in conjunction with Clerics, a Cobalt means they can train for extended periods of time and gain vast amounts of gold, also 9 stamina smite will see chars being dropped fast)

Cleric: 1 9 17 23 30 35 40 (Have Holy Might, so regain stamina, hence the late-ish 5th stamina)

Druid: 1 8 17 23 29 32 40 (Druids as hitters with max 7 stamina need their regain earlier than most, no need for 8 stam because of their damage/hit rate this would OP them)

Fighter: 1 4 10 15 22 27 32 35 40 (Give them Crit Strike first, then 10 stamina if that doesn't make them useful Crit Strike should affect monsters, adding both together without allowing an appropriate time for testing is naive)

Mage: 1 10 18 24 28 32 37 40 (Even with the extra 'deserved stamina' at level 40, it still doesn't address the HP/MP regain problem i.e. getting there, thought needs to be given to spells to improve these)

Pacifist: (No comment)

Paladin: 1 6 15 22 28 32 35 40 (Nice to have the extra 10% damage, however I would like to see the spells more significant i.e. Holy Speed means hit 90% 30-50 dmg, Divine Prayer you hit for 40-50 but hit 70% of the time, and Champion's Strength you hit 40-60, but hit 50%. Obviously these need to scale with items/level)

Ranger: 1 5 13 22 28 32 36 40 (Need to have their stamina regains earlier to ensure they get leveled, they don't have a widely available useful vamparic weapon but Hypno makes up for this, Hypno is a major core skill for Rangers, reduce the chance for Hypno to be resisted only on Boss monsters)

Thief: 1 8 17 24 29 33 36 40 (Even though DotW is an average vamparic weapon, I would suggest increasing its vamp back to 0.15/0.2 but increase the cost in Windia to 1/2mil, theives have been the target for nerfs owing to their ease of training, reducing their minimum damage is fine )

[Trendkill]

My thoughts....

Mages- 1 10 18 24 28 32 37 40
Druids- 1 7 15 25 29 33 37 40 (Yes I know....8 Stamina)
Zerks- 1 4 9 16 23 29 33 36 40
Fighters- 1 4 10 15 22 26 30 35 37 40 (Keep the new ability but tone it down a bit.)
Clerics- 1 8 14 24 29 33 37 40 (Yes I know....8 stamina.)
Rangers- 1 5 12 20 29 31 34 38 (The same as before)
Paladins- 1 6 15 22 29 32 36 40 (Pallys are fine with the new update.)
Theives- 1 6 13 21 26 31 35 39 (Deffy tone them down abit in the covert aspect...but to nerf them that bad is crazy!)

I know there's players looking at the 8 stamina clerics/druids and wondering "why"
With the difficult journey to 40 I feel that clerics and druids deserve the 8th stamina. I mean after-all lvl 40 is "Legendary" right?
A mage with 8 stamina isn't too OP but a druid with 8 stamina is? Really?

Edited by Trendkill, 02 August 2011 - 06:26 PM.

[Catalyst]

Change stam pre 30 back to what it was.

Berserker - 32 36 40

Fighter - 31 35 40 and keep critical strike (they dont need 10 stam with it)

Cleric - 32 35 40

Druid - 33 37 40 (it was fine before)

Mage - I like the new mage stam!

Ranger - Old stam was fine!

Thief - Old stam was fine.

These are my ideas on fixing the stam on the ones that got nerfed and some are slightly altered.

I like the update to the fighter it just needs 9 stam though.

Pally only needed 5% dmg increase as 10 makes it hit roughly like a fighter now.

The stamina per square to move doesn't need implemented, it was time consuming enough to level.

Thief needed a running while covert fix though, and the visible damage is the right direction but with 4 stam on my 28 thief im doing 115...

The pk range at 8 is fine!


Like I said yesterday I appreciate the time you guys put in, but this just doesn't make sense when the game was turning around.

Edit by Jase. *Lets keep this purely on Topic.*

If it's about the bosses we have done recently, I would impose Stig to buff up HQ again and let us have at her with our first party!

Edited by Catalyst, 03 August 2011 - 03:49 AM.

[Peacemaker]

re apply the stamina to be the same for druid and cleric to what it was before for up to lvl 30

I say both should only get 7 stamina. I think they should gain the extra stamina at the same lvls as per say lvl 35 and lvl 40 making the 7th stamina the ultimate goal in the end.

I do agree with most all other changes.


Fighters could be back down to 9 stamina, but i think zerks should stop at 8 stamina. They already do rediculous amounts of damage at 8 stamina as it is and thats pvp or pvm.

Thieves should top out at 7 stamina just cause of their ability to pop out of no where and kill you without you seeing who it even is. To make this fair give them back what they had before and reapply dotw the way it was in the beginning. make 6th stamina come at lvl 35 same as other classes with 7 stamina

Mages should top out at 7 as well. Remove all the pre nerf mage items from game like haunted bangles phantasmal bracelets and bracelets of anti magic. Make stamina gain same as other classes and gain 6th at lvl 35 and 7th at lvl 40. Maybe even give them a tribute ability to gain mp back like pacifist have on main that way they can solo train for longer.

I think the rest of the classes are fine where they are.

These changes here should make pretty balanced tbh.

[Dangerous]

My thoughts;

Berserker: 1 4 9 16 23 29 33 36 40 (9 Stamina max)
I'm fine with this.

Cleric: 1 9 17 27 31 36 40 (7 Stamina max)
This one made me sad as my lvl 35 Cleric now has 5 stam, which for the big bosses is a serious pain, that 1 extra stamina goes a long way.

Druid: 1 8 17 26 32 36 40 (7 Stamina max)
Was suprised to see this, imo it should be changed back to what it was, i think druids were fine how they were.

Fighter: 1 4 10 15 22 26 30 35 37 40 (10 Stamina max)
Was happy with this and i'm glad i didn't sell my fighter, the 10 stam is a little much with the Critical Strike ability, as for ppl saying the CS needs a nerf they're wrong, i've been testing it alot recently (Also on a side note, the mosh test with Justice lvl 36 Ling druid, i kinda cheated lol i used crimson flames/vamp blood pots), i think maybe 1 CS did 80 damage, the others were quite low and please remember that int and dex/level effect this (17 int/22 dex/lvl 32 on my fighter) so it seems quite balanced in my honest opinion, the only thing i would reconsider about CS is enabling it for monsters as they still lack quite a bit with regards to armor on mobs.

Mage: 1 10 18 24 28 32 37 40 (8 Stamina max)
Fine with this, still takes alot of time/effort to train a mage.

Pacifist: 1 8 14 24 29 34 38 (7 Stamina max - unchanged)
OMG PLZ NERF OP.

Paladin: 1 6 15 22 29 32 36 40 (8 Stamina max - unchanged)
Tested Thor last night (lvl 34 6 stat pally), didn't really notice a HUGE difference like some ppl had made out, the damage is slightly better but not by a big margin, tested both pvp and pvm fyi.

Ranger: 1 5 13 22 30 33 36 40 (8 Stamina max)
Felt bad for those who trained rangers after seeing this, i do agree 8 stam should be lvl 40, but for the 5 stam at 33 its kinda redic, really should be looked at as rangers are extremely tedious to train (trained hunchback in the past).

Thief: 1 8 17 24 29 33 36 40 (8 Stamina max)
Finally? I own so many thieves and agree 100% with this so no biased views here.

So overall;

1. Change cleric and druid back to how they were pre 35.
2. Make 6 stam ranger back to 31 or 32, possibly nerf 7 to 35 or 36, 8 is fine at 40
3. 8 stam mage fine, as its incentive to 40.
4. Make fighters 9 stam max, make cs hit mobs.
5. Pretty happy with the other changes.

Edited by Dangerous, 02 August 2011 - 07:25 PM.

[Trendkill]

Clerics, Druids, Mages are the hardest classes to train imo and take alot of time and effort to train. Yet, mages get 8 stamina and clerics and druids still get 7.

[Dangerous]

Cleric/Druid are fine with 7 max imo, i would suggest however something extra nice for them as an incentive to 40, possible a stronger healing spell for clerics and or a stronger armor spell for druids, but just something to encourage them to lvl however i really hope they change clerics back soon as the spelling and healing is EXTREMELY annoying.

Edited by Dangerous, 02 August 2011 - 07:32 PM.

[Trendkill]

Keep druids and clerics at 7 stamina but give them a 5 stamina regain then.

[Stig]

From "TheDruid" on the "1-alt Update" topic (guys, post here!):

I never really liked clerics to begin with, but I still think the stam kill is a little sad. Heh, but the druid thing made me not want to play! Druid is the only class that can go around and solo without having to run back and forth alllll the time! Unless of course your rich and can afford a cobalt. Now I have to go back to staying near town, 'cause I don't do enough damage to really do...anything. Not everyone likes to go with a clan all the time, it was nice being able to run off by yourself with some mana and train. I do think I will try out a fighter, if the crit chance for monsters is put in. Otherwise, I think I'll just stop playing. It's aloooot of work to get stuff done already, we have so few people some times...now your making it harder on us. Anyways, thats my two cents! Bai. :3


P.S. I made this name just to reply to these changes. xD
~Alison

[brewcrew]

Really nice ideas guys, I tend to agree with Chris about most things.
Druids -were fine before, they DO NOT deal alot of pvp damage, they will be fine with 7 stam but the spacing between stamina is outrageous. (would like to see 8 stam but i doubt it would ever happen)
I love the boost to pallies / fighters, Fighters do not need 10 stamina if CS is kept as it is , as of right now its OP
Mages -definetly need to keep 8 stamina, as in this makes them ALMOST pay out for how hard they are to level.
Rangers- I am fine with keeping Stamina but change it back to get 6 stam earlier like it was, Rangers are very tedious to level only having 1 vamp bow in game that really is not that great.
Clerics- They definitely need to go back to what it was before, maybe moving the 7th back to 40 being the only difference. This impedes a lot of the bosses on 1a, especially the ones that were killed for the first time a couple days ago by ros and MD.

[Stig]

Keep druids and clerics at 7 stamina but give them a 5 stamina regain then.

Unfortunately stamina doesn't work that way... the regain is always half the maximum stamina plus one (rounded down), so 7 is always 4.

Incentives like new equipment and possibly new spells are definitely an option and something we're actively looking at though. Unfortunately, such development takes a while, but bear with us.

Comments look good guys - keep them coming.

[Esellesar]

Stam below level 30 is perfectly balanced in all shapes & sizes. 7 off and on years of playing this game leads me to believe this.

Berserker - 32 36 40. (4 levels between 30+ seems fair)

Fighter - 31 36 40 and keep critical strike (Fighters with 10 stam and CS are OP unless CS proc rate is lowered to single digits)

Cleric - 32 35 40 (32 seems fair for 4 stam regen)

Druid - 33 37 40 (Class was perfectly balanced)

Mage - The updated stam is perfect, needed to be slightly tweaked to make them a little easier to train.

Pally- 10% bonus is a bit much. Try something closer to 6-7.5% range.

Ranger - Old stam was fine! Could use a vamp weapon purchased in shop. Would be a good compromise for keeping the new stam.

Thief - Old stam was fine.


I think that we could see a nice balance between classes with this stamina implemented. No super class, no weaklings either. Works for me.

Edited by Esellesar, 02 August 2011 - 08:26 PM.

[Trendkill]

Clerics and Druids are the only classes that max out at 4 stamina regains...

While fighters have 10 stamina and a ability to ignore armor count.

How can a druid keep up with the damage output from 8-10 stamina fighter with the new ability? (Druid regains 4 stam max)

Even with a Cobalt that is a hell of a challenge. It's almost the same as a mage in principle...a mage hit you with even just 7 stamina and the druid is already hurting bad but now you have to try to just survive off of 4 stamina ragains? But wait! This mage has 8 stamina!!! OMG! That fighter has 10 stamina?!?

[brewcrew]

Why not revert STAMINA ONLY back to what it was pre update NOW, then decide what needs to be done with it, instead of waiting a week and losing players in the process

Edited by brewcrew, 02 August 2011 - 10:38 PM.

[Dangerous]

I would support that Cody, seems like the most logical thing to do atm.

[Trendkill]

Agreed.

[brewcrew]

also i would like to add that i am for druids getting 8 stamina, more of an incentive to level to 40 and druids do not put out alot of damage pvp unless its a zerk, and as it sets now nothing really challenges zerks pvp other than druids and fighters. They still will not put out amazing damage numbers, even with 8 stamina, but may help them survive a little better. That is an amazing incentive lvl 40 for 5 stam regen, also mages are druids worst nightmare and with 7 stam mages will just run through a druid and a druid will not ever stand a chance. Especially since druids get countered so much by mages. All in all i won't be mad if druids don't get 8 stamina but i still believe the spacing is atrocious....also Rangers need 4 stam regen as soon as possible, just for the fact of being tedious to train and those level gaps are daunting.

[Dangerous]

Posting on behalf of Freek.

First off I want to apologize for semi over reacting about the changes. It's just the game was finnaly getting fun again and I was looking forward to getting back on and finishing where we left off sunday and I come home and see all these nerfs. It kinda made me rage. Again, I'm glad things are finnaly being changed but I don't believe that was the way to do it.

Also, I belive that for the time being the changes are reverted and then after a week of listening to feedback etc you make the decision (publically before release would be nice). That way people can still go about the game like before and not sit here waiting for the changes to play.


What I think stamina should be.

Berserker

1 4 9 16 23 29 33 36 40 (9 Max)

Mage

1 10 18 24 28 32 36 40 (8 Max)

Druid

1 7 15 25 29 33 36 40 (8 Max) or 1 7 15 25 29 33 40 (7 Max)

Clerics

1 8 14 24 29 33 36 40 (8 Max) or 1 8 14 24 29 33 40 (7 Max)

Rangers

1 5 12 20 29 31 36 40 (8 Max)

Paladins

1 6 15 22 29 32 36 40 (8 Max)

Fighters

1 4 10 15 22 28 32 36 40 (9 Max)

Thieves

1 6 13 21 26 31 36 40 (8 Max)

(I believe thieves should get 8 eventually, but with the stamina levels they shouldn't get 4 stam regen until lvl 33, lets not kill the class)


I believe stamina like this would be best because not only would it leave pre 30 stamina alone, it would also still give the classes the early 4 stam regen they need and incentive to train past 35 (36 for the next stam) and then ofcourse 40.

The reason I post two for Druid/Cleric is because I am still unsure if I believe they deserve 8 stam. With the fighter buff I believe druids could use it and be nerfed differently. But clerics i think would kinda be too OP with 8 (maybe)


-Freek

[Sausage]

Berserker: 1 4 9 16 23 29 35 40 (Already do a shed load of damage, are awesome in conjunction with Clerics, a Cobalt means they can train for extended periods of time and gain vast amounts of gold, also 9 stamina smite will see chars being dropped fast)

Cleric: 1 9 17 23 30 35 40 (Have Holy Might, so regain stamina, hence the late-ish 5th stamina)

Druid: 1 8 17 23 29 32 40 (Druids as hitters with max 7 stamina need their regain earlier than most, no need for 8 stam because of their damage/hit rate this would OP them)

Fighter: 1 4 10 15 22 27 32 35 40 (Give them Crit Strike first, then 10 stamina if that doesn't make them useful Crit Strike should affect monsters, adding both together without allowing an appropriate time for testing is naive)

Mage: 1 10 18 24 28 32 37 40 (Even with the extra 'deserved stamina' at level 40, it still doesn't address the HP/MP regain problem i.e. getting there, thought needs to be given to spells to improve these)

Pacifist: (No comment)

Paladin: 1 6 15 22 28 32 35 40 (Nice to have the extra 10% damage, however I would like to see the spells more significant i.e. Holy Speed means hit 90% 30-50 dmg, Divine Prayer you hit for 40-50 but hit 70% of the time, and Champion's Strength you hit 40-60, but hit 50%. Obviously these need to scale with items/level)

Ranger: 1 5 13 22 28 32 36 40 (Need to have their stamina regains earlier to ensure they get leveled, they don't have a widely available useful vamparic weapon but Hypno makes up for this, Hypno is a major core skill for Rangers, reduce the chance for Hypno to be resisted only on Boss monsters)

Thief: 1 8 17 24 29 33 36 40 (Even though DotW is an average vamparic weapon, I would suggest increasing its vamp back to 0.15/0.2 but increase the cost in Windia to 1/2mil, theives have been the target for nerfs owing to their ease of training, reducing their minimum damage is fine )

I particularly agree with clerics getting 6th stam at lvl 35 and the comments on Thieves and Rangers.

I disagree on the fact that Druids should get their 6th stam at lvl 32. Personally, I think it should be 33.

Besides that, I agree with what is stated above.

Edit: I also believe that we should at least give these changes a chance. Is it really that hard to level a thief the extra 190mil with 3 stam regen? Should answer some of those questions before we just throw the update down the toilet.

Edit 2: These alterations should be made with Cobalt (as some have mentioned) IN MIND. But I do not think that cobalt should be the standard. Please be cognizant of how difficult it is to train a Zerk or a Druid, etc. without one.

Edited by Sausage, 03 August 2011 - 04:02 AM.

[Dangerous]

Speaking as someone who had a 6 stam Cleric and now has a 5 stam Cleric, the 6 stam goes such a long way it's unreal, now its like it takes double the time to heal/hance everyone, it makes me want to log the cleric and just say fk it. The reason i made the effort to 35 Bane was to have a good support cleric with good stam to heal/hance everyone not just at medium type bosses but to have the ability to cleric those "5 star" bosses. Now it's just a major headache doing things that came so natural before it really makes me want to not play that essential support class.

[Trendkill]

Back to the mages getting 8 stamina and 5 stamina regen and druids get left with 7 stamina and 4 stamina regen...

Seems everyone has this assumption that druids are these high all mighty beasts that just wreck everything and are already OP. Well they are not.

Well let me explain: The absolutely biggest threat that druids have is mages....6 stamina mages even round a lvl 35+ druid no problem. The druid goes to attack the mage and cant even touch it....druids have absolutely no chance. A mage at 40 with 8 stamina would absolutely destroy everything...again from the druid stand point. How can a lvl 40 druid even stand up against a 8 stamina mage? Maybe if they would get a 8th stamina they would stand a very small chance....or again a 5 stamina regen but Stig explained that. Four stamina regen at 40 just seems low...wouldnt make me feel like a Legendary Guardian after all that hard work and tedious training.

I think that stamina should be the way it was and add incentive to hit the coveted Lengendary status. Such as clerics and druids getting a 8th stamina.

Also: Clerics deserve a 8th stamina at 40 because they are our biggest support system and without clerics then all the big bosses that we dropped right before the changes wouldnt of been possible. Face it...clerics take forever to train and a 8th stamina at 40 is more of a incentive for them to hit Legendary.

Legendary....make them that way!

[Vega]

I like the new stam for zerks and the +1 dex for H-Orc's, also i like the new stam for fighters/mages but i think the druids/clerics/rangers were fine the way they were and should be changed back cuz its kinda ridiculous leveling a druid/cleric/ranger now.... was hard enough as it is and now your gonna be usin 4stam all the way to 30(rangers) 31(clerics) and 32(druid) its like your still on an Expert only you have more hp/mana.

Also don't care about thieves so do w/e

Edited by Vega, 03 August 2011 - 12:44 PM.

[Dangerous]

Jay u say that druids biggest threat is a mage which may in fact be true, but when u take training/golding and such into account you'll see why. Druid can self sustain with heal and morph, mage cannot. Druid can stack dex/str mods and deal more damage morphed to mobs, mages cannot. Druids have a vamp weapon and can hit consistently morphed, mages cannot. Druids can self sustain in areas for longer than mages. Mages have to run to town to heal/refresh therefore spending gold, druid do not. Overall i think druid have it pretty good in regards to training/golding. Mages are a nightmare to train, cost a buttload and you even have to go get their armor spell from a boss

[Tietsu]

Mage is single hardest class to train. They SHOULD be the most powerful class in the game. I mean, that's just a logical perspective to me.

Druid is single easiest class to train. You may debate this, but there's honestly no contest. Druid stamina seemed fair before, but since all classes have been changed, I highly dislike the stamina distribution, but let's not pussyfoot around it. Hit and run Lions for 100 PoD still completely obliterates a thief's ability to sit there and click and click and click mobs for far less PoD. You can argue that not all of them train in Faravar. You can't argue that Druids outdamage even berserkers PvM for the longest time.

Cleric can go both ways. They can be hard to train, very tedious and slightly similar to Mage training. But with the stamina allocation, this is straight stupid. You thought it was hard enough to do high tier bosses? I mean.... I don't want to be in trouble, but changing cleric stamina is the most retarded thing I have seen.

I have been working too much, so I haven't had time to evaluate the stamina changes, other than that, this is all I can comment on.

Everything else from the update is pretty neat and I appreciate the effort, whether it was good or bad.

Edited by Tietsu, 03 August 2011 - 06:41 PM.

[Trendkill]

Understood...but a druid is only truly effective with a cobalt. Without a cobalt unless you roll around with a spider staff and switch between hawk talon/viper claws then druids have to wait untill they can morph again to regain the hp. Which costs more gold to train due to spending 130 mana to cast gaea's and morphing. Unless you totally wisdom mod a elf druid they stand no chance against a 8 stamina mage let alone a 7 stamina mage.

I know i spoke to ingame about modding wisdom on my lvl 30 elf druid but lets face it...druids are geared towards armor spells and attacking monsters. Again...unless you have a cobalt the druid stands no chance. The only way I see a druid standing a better chance is if they either had 8 stamina OR another spell that increases chances to hit. I know I'll catch disagreements with this but a druid without cobalt training with a non vamp weapon and having to wait 5 minutes to remorph to gain loss hp is tough. I know you can log off and log back on but again it will come back to spending another 130 mana for gaea's and morph.

Back on topic...sorry.
Druids do take alot of time and tedious training. Frankly what do you think of when you hear the word "Legendary" what do you think of?

A 8th stamina at 40 is fair imo...

Again...Legendary...make them just that! It's a difficult journey to 40 and is well deserved for a 8th stamina and of course more incentive to train to 40. Face it, Neo stayed at 37 why? Im not totally positive but Neo hit its last stamina of 7 at level 37...whats the incentive to level any farther? Mages are stupid hard to train but theres the goal of a 8th stamina to reach at Legendary. If mages are privelaged for 8 stamina then druids/clerics deserve a 8th stamina at 40 and give them a incentive to hit level 40.

Hope I didn't make myself sound stupid...

[Tietsu]

Saying a Mage can pwn a Druid is saying a Druid can pwn a Zerker. There's like, very little contest. There's always going to be a class that's going to dominate another. Besides, Druids -do- counterspell and resist if they are lucky. Same thing with a Zerk, if that Zerk lands 2 unlikely hits on a Druid, it's over.

Any reason why you repeated yourself? - Stig

Edited by Stig, 03 August 2011 - 07:51 PM.

[Dangerous]

Mage is strictly a PVP class, i'm sure thats why they introduced 8 for them, since they're such a long and tedious journey to 40. Druids are fine the way they were IMO, but maybe i'm wrong who knows these things, no one has tested it, so making wild asumptions is pointless.

Edited by Dangerous, 03 August 2011 - 07:36 PM.

[Trendkill]

Druids cant round a zerk. Mages can round a druid no problem.

[Trendkill]

To each is his own.