23 replies to this topic

[Crane]

There might be a legitimate reason as to why Pacifists were excluded from Masashi's and Seishi's search of the realm, but I think they are mostly harmless in their roles now, except as checkers in places like Tirantek maybe, but a new item doesn't change that.

Anyway, after thinking about things, I realised that the only piece of equipment that does not have alternatives are the Shaman's Mask and the Azure Robes. I haven't tried yet, but I'm guessing the Shaman's Mask may be accepted for Platinum Coins, plus it has enough stats as it is! There are too many different Charisma amulets out there (not to mention you might want to wear a Veridian Charm to show off), and the choice of gloves is too wide. The Azure Robes, however, is the best main armour for Pacifists and is unlikely to have an equal introduced.

Therefore, I would like to propose a new recipe:

Azure Robes + 5 Platinum Coins = Moonglow Gown

Library info for Moonglow Gown:
Armor base: 42, Can be worn by: pacifists, Description: Shimmering and glowing as magestically as the full moon in the midnight sky, the Moonglow Gown flows softly and lightly over your skin. The garment waves hypnotically in the cool breeze, filling your heart with all the wonders and happiness in the world, and bringing tears of joy to those who lay their eyes upon., Level needed to equip it: 32, Strength modifier: 0, Intelligence modifier: 0, Dexterity modifier: 0, Constitution modifier: 0, Wisdom modifier: 0, Charisma modifier: 1.

You could look at it this way... if Pacifists are just gold thieves in your eyes, then you can make them pay for their earnings with a robe that will be worth at least 2.7 million gold in the value of raw items!

[Gaddy]

I would argue that pacifists, like druids and zerkers, are already very strong.
They should have to use an item where they sacrifice something to gain.

Gloves would work, as they'd lower dexterity of SG.

Otherwise, I feel that their new item should not increase charisma.
There are so many stat mod items for pacifists and paladins without the new system...

[Crane]

I might be a bit biased, but I didn't choose gloves because I am trying to work towards a pair of Bewitched Spider Gauntlets for Europa.

As far as I know, in the regions where Pacifists interfere with parties, or check bosses, Charisma does not play a role at all - that is, Greater Pact is independent of any stat (except Wisdom on fizzle rate). It would give them +2 on Salve, but that will only be used of the user was careless or unfortunate with Greater Pact.

The only time Charisma does truly help is when they are working independently, either training or taking on undead bosses by themselves (and most have far too high HP for soloing to be feasible). Dexterity is the only other stat that they would benefit a boost from, and even that would be minor at best. As for armour... well, Europa has near enough the best equipment available (with the exception of Bewitched Spider Gauntlets), and he has 132 armour, so they are already pretty much impenetrable!

To conclude, a Charisma boost will barely affect anyone other than the Pacifist itself. If you're worried about it being able to farm gold faster, compare an hour in the Illuminated Tunnel with one with an hour training a party in the desert - the gold difference is exorbitant.

Edited by Crane, 23 July 2009 - 01:26 AM.

[Trevayne]

1) High-end pacifist items will be purchased by no more than two players, and most likely only one.

2) The design space for item boosts for pacifists has already been made too terribly small due to multiple-stat-boost items (like the Shaman's Mask), extremely high armor, and the very limited set of stats that pacifists actually use.

3) Pacifists already have possible charisma boosts on necklaces, boots, headgear, rings, and bracelets for a total possible boost of +9. While some of these are old quest items, they are still around in game and need to be considered. Adding more possible armor slots that boost their primary statistic is overkill.

4) Staff members in the past have complained bitterly when pacifist items were introduced that could not be obtained directly by pacifists. Azure robes cannot be obtained by a lone pacifist, nor can most if not all of the items that can be used to trade for Platinum Coins.

[Ares]

I wonder though, if the mod wasn't made to be charisma, or wisdom, or dexterity if that would make a difference. What if it was to be an item that made for instance +5 strength or something of the other, since pacifists do not require strength at all, it would be for show.

I feel the turn in item for this could be a walking stick, since they are obtainable by pacifist.

And I would totally get the item if made available. Hades would = pwnage!

[Crane]

A Pacifist totally stocked up with rare Charisma boosters would have exceptional power over the Undead, but this is very unlikely because such quest items have either been deleted with the inactive or banned crits they were on, or are being hoarded by one or two players (*cough* Scripto). Besides, I have to ask "so what?" to them having powerful spells over the Undead; it's not like they can join parties and kill things any faster than a party of alts, and the monsters they can actually 'attack' is severely limited anyway.

I have never been approached by staff in the past complaining about Pacifists not being able to obtain items that they use - that above post is the first I have heard of it. And I ask again "so what?" - a Ranger cannot obtain a Cobalt Bow by itself, and I've heard no complaints about that either. A lot of equipment in the game is often bought by players instead of being obtained directly.

Pacifists have been attacked for being able to obtain gold too easily - while this issue has been resolved now, surely giving them something to spend gold on (such as equipment for Platinum Coins) cannot be a bad thing. It's not like most of the equipment that Masashi accepts can be obtained by any one class of character that desires the specialist item that Seishi provides.

I understand that most staff do not use Pacifists the way they should be used (using them as checkers is not the way they should be used), but they should not be discriminated against just because they aren't a popular playing style. True, Pacifist numbers are low at the moment, but that's because they have very little in for them now.

[Autek]

By getting an extra charisma using these robes a pacifist will do what, maybe an extra 3 damage or so? It would take an insane ammount of kills for that +3 damage to add up to any ammount of gold, let alone the 2.7m that it would cost to get the robes. All this would be is a luxury item for pacifists, and would take more gold out of the economy than it would put in.

[Trevayne]

I have never been approached by staff in the past complaining about Pacifists not being able to obtain items that they use - that above post is the first I have heard of it.

Actually, you were the one that started and supported that argument when you wanted to get your design for the Boots of Radiance (a pacifist-only alternative to boots of time) put into the game. You argued that since pacifists could not obtain the boots of time solo, that they should have a store-bought alternative that they could obtain on their own. You started this line of reasoning, not me.

I understand that most staff do not use Pacifists the way they should be used (using them as checkers is not the way they should be used)

I don't see where you are in any position to decree how one playing style is the one and only right way. As I said on the other thread, if you want people to respect your playing style and pay attention to you, putting down their way of playing is likely to get you ignored.

[Trevayne]

All this would be is a luxury item for pacifists, and would take more gold out of the economy than it would put in.

See point #1.

[Crane]

I have never been approached by staff in the past complaining about Pacifists not being able to obtain items that they use - that above post is the first I have heard of it.

Actually, you were the one that started and supported that argument when you wanted to get your design for the Boots of Radiance (a pacifist-only alternative to boots of time) put into the game. You argued that since pacifists could not obtain the boots of time solo, that they should have a store-bought alternative that they could obtain on their own. You started this line of reasoning, not me.

The argument was over a crafting suggestion to produce pure Charisma boots out of multiple Boots of Time and a few other components, and my complaint was over the fact that it would make Boots of Radiance obsolete, because only a Pacifist would use Charisma-boosting boots and hence the Boots of Radiance, which were already in-game and before either of us were officially staff, would never be bought. I tried to compromise by suggesting a recipe that used a pair of Boots of Radiance, but you would only accept it if a second recipe, with just Boots of Time, appeared alongside it. You even turned around and said that the Boots of Radiance were already obsolete. As for the suggestion of changing Boots of Radiance into an alternative of the crafted Charisma Boots, the problem arose of the large price difference and the pairs that were in-game already. I never ever said the problem came from Pacifists not being able to obtain Boots of Time solo.

As for how Pacifists are used, I am sure you and I could fight all day about how they should and should not be used, but considering you are banning their entry to all of your recent areas, I believe we are in agreement in regards to their use as checkers, so I was quite astonished when you said 'no' to blocking them from entering certain parts of Tirantek. I have my opinion as to why that was really your decision, but everything is down to opinions... pure, simple opinions.

Edited by Crane, 18 August 2009 - 11:39 PM.

[Crane]

All this would be is a luxury item for pacifists, and would take more gold out of the economy than it would put in.

See point #1.

The same could be said about the Shackles of the Sea Witch. Maybe at present only a handful of players would buy them, but then again maybe their mere existence would be enough to tempt players to train the class in question to the required level.

[Trevayne]

I have my opinion as to why that was really your decision

Veiled attacks at me are a sure-fire way of getting yourself and a topic ignored.

[Walt]

I have my opinion as to why that was really your decision

Veiled attacks at me are a sure-fire way of getting yourself and a topic ignored.

All he said is he has an opinion of why something was done. You taking it as a personal attack towards yourself is a bit of a stretch isn't it? What I am getting from this posting of yours is that if your rear end isn't kissed, and you are not coddled, you will just simply take your ball home and not let any other kids have any more fun.

You are only a staffer, one who does very fine creative work, but you are not some be all to end all superior of everyone else.

[Gaddy]

There is a history and reason that Gareth's comments are insulting, hence the word "veiled".

Constantly suggesting upgrades for pacifists and paladins has to result in some form of cap, and they have more mods than any other classes already.
Just because you want it doesn't make it needed, and it definately doesn't make it balanced or prioritized.

In addition, insulting will always draw negative attitudes, and it is perfectly fine for staff to say to be polite or be ignored, in my opinion. There is no other way to keep a balance between debate, arguement, and finally harassment.


Just my thoughts. Sorry to go off topic.
I think everything was more than well covered by Trev's first post.

[Autek]

1) High-end pacifist items will be purchased by no more than two players, and most likely only one.

There seems to be a lot of people playing pacifists as of late though, I remember seeing a bunch of people training them up so that they could take on the Ganymede. I can't see the addition of the item taking that much time to put in, and it would take more gold out of the game than it would put in. Even if only a handful of players get the item it's better than nobody spending the gold at all.

As Crane mentioned, the mage item will likely only be bought by a select few, and would have a much greater impact on the game than the pacifist item. A mage dealing extra damage has the power to change the outcome of moshes and other special PvP events. The pacifist item would just do a couple extra damage to a handful of monsters in the game.

I don't use a pacifist with any regularity myself, but it hardly seems fair that they would be left out when the addition is so simple to add.

[Prophet]

I know this is very off-topic but I'm intrigued by the suggestion of stopping pacifists from certain parts of tirantek, especially from the entrance to the challenge as I think this would increase the competitiveness of the credenza. Personally I have been playing tirantek quite a bit recently and would certainly benefit myself to keep the checkers in place as with a 3 day spawn it would be alot easier to only use a SoA and SoD for when I know its in, but the idea of being forced to go check it, perhaps on the way to kunal I find very interesting.

Could I get any information whether this is up for debate or whether it's a closed book? If the previous then I'll make a seperate topic.

I'd like to point out that this is not a veiled attack, I just like this idea alot, areas where pacifist checkers aren't used just seem alot better to me.

[Crane]

If not the Azure Robes, then why not the Walking Stick? With the exception of some rare plushies and the Broomstick (which doesn't do Pacifists any favours), the weapon slot is almost never used, so there isn't the problem of variety in this slot. The Walking Stick is purchased in a shop, like the items for 4 of the other classes (Fighters, Mages, Paladins and Thieves) and can be obtained by a Pacifist acting alone... just takes that treacherous journey through the Entangled Overgrowth and the Subterranean Waterways. As for the Platinum Coins, that's where the Pacifist user's ability to be a merchant and make a deal comes into play, and working to make 2.5 million gold or so to buy 5 of the coins from another player, or the items that can be exchanged for them.

For a weapon-like suggestion, here are a couple of suggestions, starting with a very old one (with a slight name change):

Library info for Scroll of the Caste:
Description: Pacifists that become Protectors are sometimes given the opportunity to undertake a challenge of their commitment to Pacifism after proving themselves against the undead horror. The few Protectors who complete the challenge are completely purged of their evil and are rewarded with one of the caste's scared scrolls that tell the story of how they and their deities came into existence. A Protector who holds forth one of these scrolls is one that commands great courage, respect, honour, and above all, peace for the good light..

Admittedly the description doesn't quite make sense considering that the item is traded rather than rewarded to you personally, but that can be worked on. The weapon stats are hidden, but would just be +1 Charisma and a level requirement of level 32 (for the same reasons that the Shackles of the Sea Witch are level 32 - I'm not sure how many of those have been crafted).

Library info for Staff of Tranquility:
Base damage: 0, Can be used by: pacifists, Description: The Staff of Tranquility is quite weighty in your grasp and feels like it is made of metamorphic rock. Subdued swirls of silver, violet, blue and teal spiral down the shaft in a manner that is in no way displeasing to the eye. The stave tapers at the top, before spreading small marble arms to grasp a large translucent white pearl of the deep. As a weapon, it does not appear to be particularly sturdy or functional and would never be used as such, but as a symbol, it is a beacon of peace and hope to all., Level needed to equip it: 32, Magical: Yes, Vamparic: No, Armor: 0, Strength modifier: 0, Intelligence modifier: 0, Dexterity modifier: 0, Constitution modifier: 0, Wisdom modifier: 0, Charisma modifier: 1, Poison chance: 0, Poison/30s damage: 0, Monster damage table: , Mana leech: .

Eagle-eyed readers, and those unfortunate enough to get clobbered by him, may notice that this is the same weapon that Ganymede uses against you! The magical rating is mostly for show, since while Pacifists would be able to equip it, they won't ever be able to attack with it.


Pacifists appear to be on the rise again; a few people seem to be returning, either from 1-alt or a complete sabbatical, and intent on training up their Pacifists as well as their other crits, and getting Shaman's Masks too. Numbers are increasing slowly.

Edited by Crane, 23 September 2009 - 03:18 AM.

[Gnarkill]

I like the suggestions especially the staff of tranquility, it would give my paci a nice item to work towards for when trying to get the shaman's mask I need to level gets frustrating. My main thing is I only play a Paci these days.. I come over from 1a often to get a rest from the bickering and drama and having to have to work with people.. I would like things like that to work on. Sure I may be biased because I play the class but why would I support something that doesn't interest me as a player?

I don't understand if every other class has a option with platinum coins why paci's cant.. even if it is something as simple as a walking stick alternative. Killing the same few monsters over and over that pacis can gets repetitive and old fast. Things like this would give people who enjoy using Pacis another "quest" they could accomplish.

@ Gaddy- I know you dislike pacis and try to put down anything that will benefit them for things that would benfit yourself thats human nature, but some of us enjoy the class as they were meant to be used (not just checkers) and would like to see a class we enjoy being a bit more involved.

@ Trev- we have had a good discussion going on Paci's a few times and I think you are open to ideas but don't realize there are people out there who really enjoy them enough to play them more if things get added, myself being one of them.

Pacis really kind of get the shaft on things they can be used to accomplish, its the same few areas over and over and it gets tedius and frustrating to not be able to venture out to kill new mobs or work towards new shiny gear.

[IXThunderDomeXI]

There are so many stat mod items for pacifists and paladins without the new system...

Whose said anything about paladins? Also i think druids have the most stat mods (not including rares)

I dont see a problem with this i like the idea would give people who like to uses pacifists something to spend there money on and anyways how would it make a pacifist overpowered? pacifist are mostly checkers for a reason anything you could do on a pacifist im pretty sure you could do better on a party of 20.

[ice_cold]

If not the Azure Robes, then why not the Walking Stick? With the exception of some rare plushies and the Broomstick (which doesn't do Pacifists any favours), the weapon slot is almost never used, so there isn't the problem of variety in this slot. The Walking Stick is purchased in a shop, like the items for 4 of the other classes (Fighters, Mages, Paladins and Thieves) and can be obtained by a Pacifist acting alone... just takes that treacherous journey through the Entangled Overgrowth and the Subterranean Waterways. As for the Platinum Coins, that's where the Pacifist user's ability to be a merchant and make a deal comes into play, and working to make 2.5 million gold or so to buy 5 of the coins from another player, or the items that can be exchanged for them.

For a weapon-like suggestion, here are a couple of suggestions, starting with a very old one (with a slight name change):

Library info for Scroll of the Caste:
Description: Pacifists that become Protectors are sometimes given the opportunity to undertake a challenge of their commitment to Pacifism after proving themselves against the undead horror. The few Protectors who complete the challenge are completely purged of their evil and are rewarded with one of the caste's scared scrolls that tell the story of how they and their deities came into existence. A Protector who holds forth one of these scrolls is one that commands great courage, respect, honour, and above all, peace for the good light..

Admittedly the description doesn't quite make sense considering that the item is traded rather than rewarded to you personally, but that can be worked on. The weapon stats are hidden, but would just be +1 Charisma and a level requirement of level 32 (for the same reasons that the Shackles of the Sea Witch are level 32 - I'm not sure how many of those have been crafted).

Library info for Staff of Tranquility:
Base damage: 0, Can be used by: pacifists, Description: The Staff of Tranquility is quite weighty in your grasp and feels like it is made of metamorphic rock. Subdued swirls of silver, violet, blue and teal spiral down the shaft in a manner that is in no way displeasing to the eye. The stave tapers at the top, before spreading small marble arms to grasp a large translucent white pearl of the deep. As a weapon, it does not appear to be particularly sturdy or functional and would never be used as such, but as a symbol, it is a beacon of peace and hope to all., Level needed to equip it: 32, Magical: Yes, Vamparic: No, Armor: 0, Strength modifier: 0, Intelligence modifier: 0, Dexterity modifier: 0, Constitution modifier: 0, Wisdom modifier: 0, Charisma modifier: 1, Poison chance: 0, Poison/30s damage: 0, Monster damage table: , Mana leech: .

Eagle-eyed readers, and those unfortunate enough to get clobbered by him, may notice that this is the same weapon that Ganymede uses against you! The magical rating is mostly for show, since while Pacifists would be able to equip it, they won't ever be able to attack with it.


Pacifists appear to be on the rise again; a few people seem to be returning, either from 1-alt or a complete sabbatical, and intent on training up their Pacifists as well as their other crits, and getting Shaman's Masks too. Numbers are increasing slowly.

no more charisma mods please. all youre doing is buffing pacifists stats up in places they dont already have stat mods

[Crane]

You didn't have to quote my entire post to make that point.

To emphasise how this crafting works, every other class has been buffed up in places where they don't already have vital stat mods (I say "vital" because the Druid item replaces the +1 Chr of the Antlers with +1 Dex of the Stalker's Mask, although this does give them the option of using Boots of Time without a penalty for extra armour), but Pacifists have been deliberately left out. Take a look at this Wiki topic for more information.

A Dex mod instead of a Chr mod for a Pacifist item would work, but I doubt many people would want to spend 5 Platinum Coins in crafting such an item.

Edited by Crane, 28 September 2009 - 03:47 PM.

[Raylen]

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat my post got deleted

it was like the first one in months

evil people

[Crane]

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat my post got deleted

it was like the first one in months

evil people

Surely you can re-post it then, or if you think it was deleted due to a controversial paragraph, reword it a bit.

[Kratos]

I left 1alt and moved to main for some of the very reasons of Gnarkill. And I have multiple crits i can run, but I love my pacifist. I dont play a pacifist to make gold or to check for bosses. I play a pacifist because I enjoy pacifists. And I feel like the pacifist has been a little jipped on the the new items. You say Pacifists have too many cha mods? I dont see them. All I see are boots of time, cha ammy, and shaman's mask. I dont know about the robes Gareth, but I support the alternative to the walking stick.

Diabolical-Main
Dude-1alt