37 replies to this topic

[Dublin]

Ok, I know that the 1a server is what Simon "planned" on redoing. However with some though and talking to other players, it seems that most would rather have a new 3a server then a 1a server, and if you (Simon) are going to put enough effort into starting something from scratch, I believe that this would be the best option.

Reasons

I. Diversity - 1a and 20a lovers would both be able to enjoy nightmist. Also the diversity in the party set ups would be awsome.

II. Something New - Something nightmist has never done before. Would draw in players new, old, and current.

III. Solo & Co-op - You wouldn't HAVE to wait for people to go train certian classes and explore and stuff. However, you would still need to rely on clans or friends to get something done.

IV. Clans & Friends - Kind of ties into the above. You wouldn't HAVE to be in the dominate clans to have fun. You could simply have 2-3 friends willing to help you, or go on a trip with you.

There are many reasons for why this would be the better option, In my opinon, but since this is a discussion/pole I will leave it to players for there reasoning behind it.

On a side note: One of the current servers would still have to go, sorry but NightMist cannot handle three. Anyone who wishes to flame the closing of a server please do it in the other thread.

[ice_cold]

i said it in the other post, people might like the idea of having their alts again, but 1alt is the server thats supposed to be fixed right? having 3 alt is just another main server, get on main and run a party of 3 different classes, problem solved right? like i said, leave alts for main and 1alt as 1alt, theres no reason for having 2 servers with the same concept, using alts. you cant run 1 crit on a server with 3 alts, everyoe would pretty much be forced to using 3alts

[Dublin]

A valid point. However, a player could still opt to play on 1crit and it would be almost exactly like the 1a server is now. You can play the "change the 20alt to 3alt" card but that wont work. Only reason 3alt is even being tossed around is because there "is" a server being redone from scratch and to make main balanced for 3alt it would take almost as much work as making 1a balanced for 1a, in essence leading to a total redo.

What would actually be the difference in playing on 1a and playing on 3a? You wouldn't be able to kill bosses that you currently cant with one alt, with the exception of a couple that would take forever. The only thing I can really see you complaining about that would force a player into having to use 3 alts would be pking. Though right now on 1a if your out training alone, and you get pk'd there are usually one or more characters that are doing the pking and if not then they have the potions to act like 3 players.

If you would please give a better reason to keep 1a besides you COULD be able to log on to up to 3 if you wish then I might consider keeping 1a actually being a better idea then a 3a.


P.S - If you Vote, please state why you voted for what you voted for and why you agree/disagree with your choice vs the other.

Edited by Dublin, 25 May 2009 - 04:33 AM.

[ice_cold]

i would play either server, but would rather a 1a server. think about it though, if theyre doing a complete rehaul on the system, theyll tailor it to either 1a or 3 alts, i highly doubt there would be any difference in the mechanics. you say 3 alts because your basing it off the current system, but the systems being rehauled. if people can use 3 alts, theyll tailor bosses to being a 3 alt server, just like theyve been doing recently with the 20alt server, if its a 1a server theyll do the same. people will want 3alts to find better combinations to make theyre party stronger, and most people will probably end up with the same parties in the end anyways, with a few variations. i say make a class system somewhat diverse and use different equipment to make characters different. i.e. have 5 or 6 different sets of boots for multiple levels, different gloves, maybe something gives no armor but goos spell resistance, or if the stat system is rehauled something thats gives you you more dex, or str so on, then maybe something that gives you a good armor base, or maybe a set of boots that gives you gloves, now i think that would be more interesting to see people and what armors they would choose in that instance, over seeing people just trying to find the best combination alts to use

on a side note, i would play either way. i would just rather less clicking and a broader range of what i can do with that 1 crit

Edited by ice_cold, 25 May 2009 - 04:36 AM.

[Dublin]

I see what your saying and I would play either also, but your reasoning behind it could go either way. You say parties would be the same, well aren't classes the EXACT same? You say solve that by multiple boots etc. Well couldn't you do that still on 3 characters? When a magic caster group of 3 fights a melee class wouldn't you wish you had wis mods instead of your str mods? I'm not trying to slam your ideas I'm just pointing out that there is no REAL dedicated reason behind only wanting everyone to play on 1alt.

[Cruxis]

1a was never balanced to more so suit 1a play. The way we gain exp, the amount of gold mobs drop, the class balancing. All are still pretty much the same as 20a, very few changes have been made.

A balanced 1a version of Nightmist, it's what we all wanted done for the last 3 years, but no one wants to lose what they've done. A few months to a year for completion, what are the players of 1a to do? Without knowledge of what will happen, we feel any effort made to play 1a will go to waste.

I feel since 1a is still mostly suited to alt play then anything else, simply changing it to 3a overnight wouldn't hurt a thing, and would even bring some new excitement to the server as who has the best account, who's the best player/clan.

I totally support changing 1a to 3a with no strings attached, no reset, ect.\


Edit: And by this, I mean NM will have Main (better to be called NM Solo?), 3a, and soon, a 1a.

Edited by Cruxis, 25 May 2009 - 08:03 AM.

[Dublin]

I was talking about the NEW 1a instead of the current 1a to 3a. But, if the decision is rethought and changed to 3a or if the NEW 1a decision is FINAL, then I dont see the harm in testing 3a on the current 1a server.

Maarten quit viewing and start posting

P.S - If you Vote, please state why you voted for what you voted for and why you agree/disagree with your choice vs the other.

Edited by Dublin, 25 May 2009 - 09:38 AM.

[Angelus]

You need to question your reasons for wanting one or the other.

Most likely they are based upon the way the game operates now. You believe you can't do enough with just one alt, or not as much as you want too. Thus you think bringing in 2 more alts creates more gameplay.

The problem isn't that 1 char is not enough, but that people have no trouble running multiple chars and still get everything out of the game possible. Conclusion of that is that the current game doesn't offer enough to keep people content with running just one character

So this might be true now, but what if the game is overhauled to a point where the gameplay is rich enough as is.

So instead of wanting 3alts, we need 1alt that keeps you occupied.

One way to do this is make the playing style more complicated. Every class having low self buffs that basically need to be cast to be effective in combat, possibilities to self regenerate (but not as fast as a cleric would do and it requires standing still etc.).
If all this would be added I'm sure people would complain that it gets annoying to constantly do these things ("let's automate it like we automated everything else", sound familiar?), because people like the laid back style of the game. So then if you like the laid back gameplay, then why would you want to run 3 crits in the first place?

If it's because this way you can do more damage then here is the catch, we simply up everything on the new server (mob wise and the like) x3. Forcing people to use 3 alts, but in reality it being the same as using 1 alt on an 1x server. It has no benefits.

Now I hear you thinking, "but this way I can run a cleric and hitters", and being self sufficient. Now I ask you, who says you won't be able to be self sufficient on just 1 char on the new server?



So in conclusion, you probably voted on this poll with your thoughts focused on the current server. In that case you might as well base it on a totally different game. If we keep the game WoW in the back of our head when voting, would you still want to play 3 chars as opposed to 1?

I'm not saying that I know the outcome of this new server, I'm just saying that you need to think about what you base your opinions on.

[Dublin]

Thank you for posting.

The reason that 3a was mentioned is because, yes we figure the mechanics will be about the same.

If you are going to totally redo the ability's and such of the game to completely change it from the way nightmist has been the last 6-7 years, I don't know if you will keep the players. I'm not hating or saying don't do it, but what I read from your post was that you might give every character a self buff and in essence change all the classes and the way nightmist is played. I know that there are other pretty well known text based games that already do this and things like it. I found, in my experience, that I like the way the nightmist mechanics worked and thats what always brings me back. If you are going to do this, I wouldn't even call it NM1A2, I'd call it another game.

This being said, I think most players (at least me) believe that a redone 1a would have minor alterations to the way the game is played. There would be drastic balancing issues maybe a new race or class, but not changing the hole set up to where every class can infact Solo. From what I've seen, 1a was supposed to "promote cooperation". However, instead of just "promoting" it, 1a forced it.

Even if the game mechanics were remade, which made it fun and intresting just to play one character, couldn't you just remake it to where its fun and intresting to run three? All I'm saying is that by making it to where everyclass can be self suffiecent on there own would lead to "blobs running around". We would be back to where we are now, the best and easiest self sufficient class would be what everyone trained.


Again, I won't count anything out because we don't have an Idea what Simon plans on actually changing in the game. But to me, I know that if the way Stamina is given back, hp is gained, and a buff that every class can regen over time, it just wont be the same NightMist to me and I'll probably stick to the main server.

I'm just saying that you need to think about what you base your opinions on.

We base our opinions on our experience with nightmist. If changes are going to be so drastic that that is not a good enough thing to base our opinions off of. Then it is not nighmist and the players can not help in the building of the new server.

Edited by Dublin, 25 May 2009 - 01:01 PM.

[Angelus]

My post was in no way meant to give any info on the new server, as I know about just as much of it as you guys do at this point. I'm just wondering why someone would rather play 3 screens, where you can play 1. So I talk and I talk, and people always seem to take from it something else that I initially meant

But you're kinda going against yourself, almost in all mmorpgs you play 1 character, and they aren't 'blobs' as they all have specific weaknesses and strength. Being able to regen isn't part of a class, it's part of how a game deals with loss of hp/mana so you can venture out more. Now if you allow a 3 alt server, we all know what characters will be picked, 1 cleric, 2 hitters for training, 3 hitters perhaps for fast pking. You will see the same parties for the same purposes. In my eyes that's more a of a blob then creating different classes with different playing styles. Different ways they take down mobs, different strengths against some classes, weaknesses against others. Simple example is a mob with very high dex, one only a particular class can match. Or one with big AC only a particular class (with high enough str) can penetrate.

Disclaimer: I'm just talking, just because i have this icky green thing under my avatar doesn't mean that the things I say are based upon anything.

[Dublin]

I see where your coming from and I wasn't taking any of that like "omg there gonna change everything" because I know that nothing has really been said what was going to happen and change in nightmist.

The reason why I believe, and why some others think that playing 3 screens would be funner is because, well nightmist was based off alts before the 1a server came out. Though the 1a server was/is fun at times (when there are enough players on at once), there is really not much one person can do by there self. I don't think that there will be more diversity by having users play on 1 class though, compared to playing on 3. As you can see now, players get a choice of 8 classes to choose from, yet half of them are 1 class. With 3 instead of having 1 over used class, you say there will be 3 over used classes. I disagree, some people might choose to go full firepower (Cleric, 2x Zerk), some people might chose stealth (druid, 2x thief, or mage), and some might chose tanks (Fighters/Pallys). The possibilites are endless and being able to see what 3alt party would be the best would be great.

Anyways, Im just talking as well. . I still believe whatever the new server brings to nightmist will be better then an unbalanced server. However, I don't think that changing how the game works is a great idea. Again, I know nothing you said is whats going to happen it was just to show that anything is possible.

Edited by Dublin, 25 May 2009 - 01:42 PM.

[Tietsu]

The problem isn't that 1 char is not enough, but that people have no trouble running multiple chars and still get everything out of the game possible. Conclusion of that is that the current game doesn't offer enough to keep people content with running just one character.

I'd like to go ahead and call BS on this one. As a person who grew up from NM 1A, I think we are better fitted to make an opinion than someone who played seldom and sold off for Main.

So in conclusion, you probably voted on this poll with your thoughts focused on the current server. In that case you might as well base it on a totally different game. If we keep the game WoW in the back of our head when voting, would you still want to play 3 chars as opposed to 1?

I don't understand a comparison to WoW. It's much more advanced and it's only actual relativity to NM is that it's an RPG. NM is a 2-D txt-based game, which is relatively easy to run more than one character.

I'm not saying that I know the outcome of this new server, I'm just saying that you need to think about what you base your opinions on.

I'm glad someone understands my motives. I'm sure most of us put much more thought into this over a period of weeks than someone does that just felt like posting on this topic.


-At the moment 1 ALT would be the same exact server as 3 ALT. Nothing majorly done to fit the change, maybe add more KTPs per square. 1 ALT was thrown at us, unbalanced. 3 ALT seems much more balanced for the server that already exists moreso than 1 ALT that every struggled on. I see nothing more wrong with this idea than I do with a 1 ALT server being thrown in without required changes.

-More than half of the server goes unused daily, thanks to lack of playerbase. I would like to mainly blame the creation of the new 1A2 Server, whether I thought it was a good idea or not; some people did not. I personally slowed down on NM 1A from the issue of deletage.

-If the server is to be deleted, give us our request, so that maybe Credenza can be killed before the apocalypse.

EDIT: This post was actually made to keep the current 1 ALT Server and change it to 3 ALT. I would much rather see a brand new 1A server than a 3A server.

Edited by Tietsu, 25 May 2009 - 02:16 PM.

[Prophet]

Didn't read anything but the first post simply because it was working on the assumption the game engine is going to be exactly the same, currently to train properly you need either vampiric weapons or a healer(cleric/paladin) however, the new game will presumably have major changes if its going to take a year to create so there is no reason why all classes may not have vampiric weapons/spells in order to rejuvenate their health or some other method to be able to stay out training for long stretches at a time without the need for a healer, whilst still not negating the need for healers throughout the entire game, such as harder areas the method may no longer work for some reason i.e. you can't leech from the monsters in the area or something similiar.

You have no idea how the new server will run(neither do I) therefore its impossible to make a comparison to the current 1a server, if the same problems arise then the balancing/updating will have been a failure, which after a year of work I doubt.

Points II III IV are covered by the above, as for diversity 3 alts would never quench the thirst for alts that the current Main players have; generally the main reason people play Main is because they prefer to be kept busy(although even with 20alts there is still an element of waiting for stam) this just isn't the case on 1a or with 3a as you are always waiting 10 secs for something else to do, if that problem is sorted in the new version of 1a then I could see myself playing it.


Edit 1:
Re Tietsu: Actually let me be the first to call bullnuts training on 1 alt isn't fun because if no one is online to talk to you are literally stuck waiting 10 seconds to tap a macro again, I don't have to have played 1 alt to realise this just try power training alts on double exp and that is enough boredom for me.

As for the credenza if you hadn't all picked thieves you'd be able to kill credenza, if you get together 3 clerics(level 30) and some 7 rangers/zerks (level 29+) you can kill it, pick the right kind of clerics to get your journal, have it translated, power kill the chief bodyguard, go get your seal and off you go... rogues shouldn't be a problem with so many people able to hold macroes, healing should be much more direct as they are only controlling one character and can therefore maximise the amount healing for..

3 alt is not much more balanced it was tested on Main for a day for a bit of fun and all people did was run around on a cleric and 2 rangers/zerks destroying each other so easily as spelled up means 2 of there characters are likely to drop before they even know what happened leaving them with 1 left alive.

From what I read your comments just seem full of jealousy that he has been appointed staff even though you nominated yourself so many times...

Edited by Prophet, 25 May 2009 - 02:45 PM.

[Dublin]

Didn't read anything but the first post simply because it was working on the assumption the game engine is going to be exactly the same, currently to train properly you need either vampiric weapons or a healer(cleric/paladin) however, the new game will presumably have major changes if its going to take a year to create so there is no reason why all classes may not have vampiric weapons/spells in order to rejuvenate their health or some other method to be able to stay out training for long stretches at a time without the need for a healer, whilst still not negating the need for healers throughout the entire game, such as harder areas the method may no longer work for some reason i.e. you can't leech from the monsters in the area or something similiar.

You have no idea how the new server will run(neither do I) therefore its impossible to make a comparison to the current 1a server, if the same problems arise then the balancing/updating will have been a failure, which after a year of work I doubt.

As I'm glad to see you restate what maarten already stated. I would like to say if I cannot compare how the game will be to what nightmist is now, then what do I have to base any suggestion off of? Maybe I'll ask for nightmist 1a2 to be in 3D next.

Also, this post wasnt just for the NEW 1a sever to be made into a 3alt server, but if this is actually going to go through, some poeple would like to spice up the current 1a server by allowing 3 crits to be used at a time.

[ice_cold]

I'm not trying to slam your ideas I'm just pointing out that there is no REAL dedicated reason behind only wanting everyone to play on 1alt.

go ahead i dont really care. i want to use 1 character, in a new system that would be more plausable. you have 3 alts, they buff everything up making you need to use 3 alts anyways, its 1 alt you can kill stuff with 1 alt. why do you want to see the way people use different classes to kill stuff, when you can see how different people use the same class? you have not stated a single reason as to why 3a would be better then 1a, all you do is come back after every post and shoot down everything that was stated before with no actual reasoning behind it, besides the fact that you want 3 alts.

[Dublin]

Actually I clearly stated why I want 3alts in the original post. It was you who failed to give a reason for wanting everyone to must use 1alt. On 3alt you can still opt for Solo play if you chose it. On 1a thats it your stuck. My reasoning behind 3a was, currently on 1a all there is, is 3 classes that 75% of the server uses, and 50% of that is 1 class. No matter what you do, besides making every class about the same, there will always be 1, 2, or 3 of the "best" classes to use when it comes down to 1alt.

[Walt]

Maybe I'll ask for nightmist 1a2 to be in 3D next.

3D would be too wowish imo....2D wouldn't be too bad of an idea though.

[Dublin]

Maybe I'll ask for nightmist 1a2 to be in 3D next.

3D would be too wowish imo....2D wouldn't be too bad of an idea though.

Yeah I guess I kinda jumped the gun on that one walt

[Prophet]

You don't have anything to base suggestions off is the point, so perhaps keep your ideas more to the conecptual side rather than to how it will make the game more balanced/fun.

With time as gradual bits of information leak out about what to expect then perhaps a more focused suggestion can be made.

[Dublin]

You don't have anything to base suggestions off is the point, so perhaps keep your ideas more to the conecptual side rather than to how it will make the game more balanced/fun.

With time as gradual bits of information leak out about what to expect then perhaps a more focused suggestion can be made.

Then I will take this post in the direction of the CURRENT 1a switched to 3a. IF the NEW nightmist is going to be 100%.

[Walt]

I want you all to hold your breath on this issue. I want to see what comes first, massive death to my fellow nightmistians, or the new game coming out. You may take a deep breath every 45 seconds just to keep this game fun.

[Dublin]

I want you all to hold your breath on this issue. I want to see what comes first, massive death to my fellow nightmistians, or the new game coming out. You may take a deep breath every 45 seconds just to keep this game fun.

Whatever it takes to make it more enjoyable right walter . From your sarcasm I assume that you are not against a switch

[Tietsu]

Edit 1:
Re Tietsu: Actually let me be the first to call bullnuts training on 1 alt isn't fun because if no one is online to talk to you are literally stuck waiting 10 seconds to tap a macro again, I don't have to have played 1 alt to realise this just try power training alts on double exp and that is enough boredom for me.

WTF did you just say?

[Walt]

I want you all to hold your breath on this issue. I want to see what comes first, massive death to my fellow nightmistians, or the new game coming out. You may take a deep breath every 45 seconds just to keep this game fun.

Whatever it takes to make it more enjoyable right walter . From your sarcasm I assume that you are not against a switch

As long as I can log on and have fun, I wont care where I am. I was never good at running more than a few characters at one time, so main grew unfun for me and I left in 04., 1A came around and I had fun again.

Games are supposed to be fun,. not a crying contest.

[Dublin]

As for the credenza if you hadn't all picked thieves you'd be able to kill credenza, if you get together 3 clerics(level 30) and some 7 rangers/zerks (level 29+) you can kill it, pick the right kind of clerics to get your journal, have it translated, power kill the chief bodyguard, go get your seal and off you go... rogues shouldn't be a problem with so many people able to hold macroes, healing should be much more direct as they are only controlling one character and can therefore maximise the amount healing for..

3 alt is not much more balanced it was tested on Main for a day for a bit of fun and all people did was run around on a cleric and 2 rangers/zerks destroying each other so easily as spelled up means 2 of there characters are likely to drop before they even know what happened leaving them with 1 left alive.

Credenza isnt the problem on 1a.. Ku'Nal is.. Even though there is a keeshe and a sent shield in the game, each of the items belong to 1 of the top 2 clans. Keeshe = Pande, Shield = Da. And with the playerbase now, KuNal is no easy task, especially when you have to hope for an SoA drop just to be able to go when you do have enough people on.

As you say 3alt is not much more balanced. I gurantee you its more balanced then the 1a server. Atleast with 3 alts, anyone who wants to train solo can. Not just a certian 1 or 2 classes or having to wait for something to cleric you. Also, when they did it on main everyone already had lvl 30 clerics/rangers/zerks. Of course everyone was gonna around spelled and pk'd. However, 1a or 3a would be a different game. For starters, people are still trying to progress unlike when it was tested on main. Another reason, is that you would still have to co-op which might make a player drop a cleric and try a different route. Or instead of a cleric, take a pally and some fighters. Or go stealth and grab a mage druid and thief. Etc.

P.S - I agree walt.

Edited by Dublin, 25 May 2009 - 03:12 PM.

[Prophet]

If you define balanced as being able to train solo then yes 3alts is more balanced, however in every other aspect it is not with 3 alts if someone hits you first in a 3v3 you are dead guaranteed unless they are very bad, with 1a if they fail to click you then you at least have a shot at defending yourself.

[Dublin]

If you define balanced as being able to train solo then yes 3alts is more balanced, however in every other aspect it is not with 3 alts if someone hits you first in a 3v3 you are dead guaranteed unless they are very bad, with 1a if they fail to click you then you at least have a shot at defending yourself.

I define balanced as being able to progress on any class. Balanced to me isnt where 1 or 2 classes rule a server and the rest eat the dirt. If your talking about duels, 3v3 and 1v1 is the same.. If your talking about pking.. Seeing 3 people go past your or come on your square its just the same as 1v1. Usually you don't know there coming and they get the jump. Thats why it's called a pk.. And as a side note, if someone fails to click/round you in a 1v1 there are little green pots called nightshades that usually appear and they just click you instantly after there fail. So really, if your saying that 3v3's main unbalanced issue is pvp. I think you should go fight a player 1v1 on 1a. Or better yet look at top pkers/event winners.

[Prophet]

Edit 1:
Re Tietsu: Actually let me be the first to call bullnuts training on 1 alt isn't fun because if no one is online to talk to you are literally stuck waiting 10 seconds to tap a macro again, I don't have to have played 1 alt to realise this just try power training alts on double exp and that is enough boredom for me.

WTF did you just say?

Let me simplify this for you:

First off you "called BS" on something Angelus stated which in fact entirely correct for the majority of Nightmist players, hence my sarcastic quip at calling BS on you. Then I moved on to explain my reasoning, the stamina system works by regenerating a portion of your stamina up to the maximum after 10 seconds of no stamina being used. Therefore, whilst training you have to sit and wait 10 seconds per action you undertake, this can be made more boring by a lack of people online to speak to. Then anticipating a rebuttle of 'You don't play 1a how would you know' I pointed out that I have played on singular or minimal alts on the Main server whilst 'Power Training'(A common term used in Nightmist to mean focused training of a small number of alts) and that this activity was boring enough without being forced to do it constantly to achieve anything.

Hopefully you can understand this.

I define balanced as being able to progress on any class. Balanced to me isnt where 1 or 2 classes rule a server and the rest eat the dirt. If your talking about duels, 3v3 and 1v1 is the same.. If your talking about pking.. Seeing 3 people go past your or come on your square its just the same as 1v1. Usually you don't know there coming and they get the jump. Thats why it's called a pk.. And as a side note, if someone fails to click/round you in a 1v1 there are little green pots called nightshades that usually appear and they just click you instantly after there fail. So really, if your saying that 3v3's main unbalanced issue is pvp. I think you should go fight a player 1v1 on 1a. Or better yet look at top pkers/event winners.

If people are bothered about using Nightshades to finish you then this is perhaps where they are wasting their gold rather than leveling up, My point is in 1a you can atleast have a chance of getting away if they don't click you in 3a you wouldn't have this chance and they wouldn't need nightshades either to do this to you.

Edited by Prophet, 25 May 2009 - 03:31 PM.

[Angelus]

Wow there Tietsu, some hatred you got for me. Funny thing is, I never volunteered, I was asked. I even rooted for you, as well as Alan and others, but guess what..no one wants to work with you. You put this blindfold up thinking you're the savior of it all and don't give a crap about what other people think, you have a destructive personality, which is devastating for all and everything around you. So you thought up some areas, way to go. You're arrogant and think you know more then you do.

This doesn't require some simple tweaks, it requires a solid base, something you build upon. Not one person to play all high and mighty thinking he can fix things at the snap of his fingers.

as for your post.
1. You played longer so your view on things is better? So if I finished high school in 8 years and you in 4, that must mean I'm smarter?
2. That was the point, it is totally different, so how can you base a decision on a game you have no knowledge of.
3. How can you even say such a thing, how would you even know how much thought I put in things. This alone already shows that you believe what you want to believe, you make accusations that hold no ground, how can you ever be placed in a position as staff.


Cause trust me, I'd rather have someone else do it then me, but as I've been asked to participate, I will.

[Walt]

As for the credenza if you hadn't all picked thieves you'd be able to kill credenza, if you get together 3 clerics(level 30) and some 7 rangers/zerks (level 29+) you can kill it, pick the right kind of clerics to get your journal, have it translated, power kill the chief bodyguard, go get your seal and off you go... rogues shouldn't be a problem with so many people able to hold macroes, healing should be much more direct as they are only controlling one character and can therefore maximise the amount healing for..

Ku'Nal is not the problem either. We have killed her a few times with ease. The problem any clan has is getting just enough people on, and then life issues coming up and loosing that one or two key people who would have made the trip doable.

Yo can read on why we chose a mostly thief class as our main here in my last posting on that topic.

We know what we are doing, but the helpful ideas are apreciated. It all boils down to people wanting to log on a game they have played for years, and still feel as motivated as they did days/months/years ago.