33 replies to this topic

[Sneaky]

First of all-- DO NOT HARASS PANDILEX BECAUSE YOU DO NOT LIKE WHAT HE SAYS! IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HIM, EMAIL HIM. IF YOU ARE NOT MATURE ENOUGH AND LIKE TO "MAKE A SCENE," THEN I WILL PERSONALLY ASK FOR THIS THREAD TO BE LOCKED.

The same goes for personal attacks directed towards specific players/staffers.

Now, lets look to the Nightmist Terms of Service.

What's a Snert?
From time to time you might see people mention the word 'snert.'  While the deepest origins of the term appear lost in time, it was contributed to the Nightmist mythology by Edix.  Definitions vary, but basically it describes someone who diminishes the pleasure of the game for others. You don't want to be a snert, in language or in deed.  Most  administrators will banish you from the server if you engage in snertish behaviour.  (I call that: 'Getting Snertified.')

Based on the definition of a "Snert," I would say theft could be considered a snert. Ed, Bill, and Tevlok, to name a few, were banned for theft. Permanently banned, at that. Darkling, rather, was permanently banned for "snerting" in general.

Now what do these people all have in common? Staff has given them a second chance. Their permanent ban was removed, to give them a second chance. Now lets focus on Ed, Bill, and Tevlok. They are proven thieves. So, in the goodness of their heart, staff decides to give them a second chance. People change after all, right?

Wrong. Since Ed and Bill have been back, what has happened? One of Nightmist's most respected, funny, and overall nicest players was stolen from. I don't care what any of you say; Kev's account was worth a whole lot. Although I didn't always see eye-to-eye with him on things, he was one of Nightmist's best. Ed/Bill/Di have admitted to this theft.

Tevlok... he's been back for awhile too, and things have been kind of quiet on his side. Wrong again. This morning, I had to remove an extremely cool guy, Sean/Stadic from the clan. Tevlok stole his account. Granted, this theft was from actually sharing, so stupid you Sean. Still, Tevlok stole his account. This is theft, I spoke to people about it, and Tevlok has been planning to steal someones account since theft has become so accepted.

My question to staff is.. What is clouding your vision? Why are you allowing proven thieves to come back to the game you have worked so hard for? Why has theft gone from something that is discouraged to something done almost every day? These people have admitted to the thefts...its not like much action would need to be taken to fix what was done. If you are going to let someone back from a permanent ban, shouldn't it be similar to parole? You screw up, you're back out? Allowing players to come back from a permanent ban has done nothing but get rid of some very good players. Quark, Lady_Maha, Hump, and Sour have all made quitting threads recently..they've been playing Nightmist since before most people. Hell, I don't even like Hump very much, but I feel for her and why she is quitting. You're sacrificing many good players, to allow thieves to play.

My alert to players is... Don't trust anybody that isn't close enough to beat. This game has changed, people befriend others just to be able to steal from them. If staff will not do anything about theft, then it is up to the players to do something about it. If proven thieves are allowed to play and ruin the game for others, why should we accept them? Why should we allow them to be in our clans? What is more important... your clan's rank, or how other players feel about you? If thieves will be allowed to play... it is our job to make them the outcasts that they should be.

Edited by Sneaky, 24 February 2005 - 10:22 PM.

[Pandilex]

I feel you're going around in circles here. I addressed the issues in the other post:

- You cannot be stolen from unless you share or fail to protect your PC from viruses. Both your fault.

- There is no such thing as theft, only being given things. To clarify 'given', it means you transfer your ownership to the recipient.

[Sneaky]

I'm simply attempting to start the fire here; there are things I think players should be concerned about that were not said on the other topic. I don't mean this post as an attack to staff at all. I re-posted because the other topic became flooded with players attacking you.

Please, if you can't post something intelligent, or are posting simply to bash the admins/staff/ed/bill, do not bother posting at all.

[tool]

ok, i need you to clear this up for me simon. let's say i just hacked your pc, and steal your pandilex or squirrel , or any other character i choose. since you did not properly protect your pc, would i get in trouble since you didn't properly protect your pc? im just currious is all, and not implying i can hack or would ever hack.









ps
bashes bill

Edited by tool, 24 February 2005 - 10:36 PM.

[deadman]

Very Nice post Sneaky. I agree with you 100% they lost their second chance stealing again except this time they have no punishment and i know theft is going to get out of hand and it should and could be stopped by perm banning the frequent offenders at least even if u dont give the person their stuff back. but anyways........



The thieves should be made the outcasts they are that they need to befriend others to get better at a game... pretty pathetic if u ask me..... They wont have any friends left real soon... The good Nightmist community should go and fight back the thieves at least if they wont be perm banned for "Stealing" like they are supposed to be....

[combusta]

im wit tool...good point on that 1

[Matt]

It comes down to lazyness, the staff are simply lazy and don't feel like trying to fix other peoples mistakes. They have done it too much in the past so simply put, instead of doing the decent thing and trying to help the person who got stolen from they make up some silly saying about how sharing and getting stolen from isnt really stealing.

Not to say lazyness is a bad thing, in addition to the fact I was working a lot it's the reason I was fired. Pure and simple lazyness - I was starting many projects of my own and player idea's and just diddnt have the time or the energy to finish them.

They really do need to think up a better excuse though. Just say "moose off idiot it's your own fault for sharing, deal with getting stolen from and we arnt helping! you stupid gitt" or continue to use the same stupid saying about how getting something taken from you because your sharing isnt really theft.

In my opinion and i'm sure in JLH, Pandilex, and the rest of the staff's opinion, of course it's mooseing theft. If you rented an apartment and had a room mate to help pay rent and he jacked your TV when he moved out is that not theft despite the fact you were sharing one house? Of course it is for moose sake.

[Pandilex]

Repeat after me:

Nightmist is not real.

Nightmist is not real.

Nightmist is not real.

Nightmist is not real.

Nightmist is not real.

Nightmist is not real.


If it was, we'd ban you for stealing, and ban you for killing players, and make you pay taxes.


As for laziness, you seem to have it confused with the desire not to spend hours searching logs and piecing together 'who dunnit' because some idiot can't keep his password to himself.

Can you justify why staff should spend hours log searching, and questioning people, just because some idiot insists on sharing? The answer is, no. There is no justification.

And for your information, if you give your PIN number out for your ATM card, and someone takes money from it, the bank isn't liable to reimburse you.

[deadman]

You dont have to spend hrs piecing together who dunnit. All you have to do is if you are positive the right person stole the acct perm ban them. Thats the nightmist rule bout theft perm ban right? Well use it then.

[Malavon]

You dont have to spend hrs piecing together who dunnit. All you have to do is if you are positive the right person stole the acct perm ban them. Thats the nightmist rule bout theft perm ban right? Well use it then.

Yes, and to be positive about who stole it THEY NEED TO SPEND HOURS CHECKING! Sheesh

[Jenni Edwards]

You dont have to spend hrs piecing together who dunnit. All you have to do is if you are positive the right person stole the acct perm ban them. Thats the nightmist rule bout theft perm ban right? Well use it then.

Yes, and to be positive about who stole it THEY NEED TO SPEND HOURS CHECKING! Sheesh

Not if the person openly admits to stealing, as so often is the case lately, since they don't have to be afraid of consequences.

[Crane]

You dont have to spend hrs piecing together who dunnit. All you have to do is if you are positive the right person stole the acct perm ban them. Thats the nightmist rule bout theft perm ban right? Well use it then.

If the person openly admits taking the crits and equipment from the account... maybe... but if they do not, you cannot permanently ban them because someone can easily falsely accuse an innocent player of taking stuff, and that is when it gets nasty.

[Bishop]

Ever consider that the root concern over this is that, by staff not doing anything about 'people taking things that are not rightfully theirs', even openly announcing it, that you are in effect encouraging it?
I remember a year or two ago when general population of NM was too afraid to even consider it simply because JLH could, and would occasionally, check the logs and hand out a perm ban.
When you publicly announce that you will not, ever, waste your time to discourage 'theft' - because it is theft, taking something that does not belong to you; sharing does not bestow ownership - you remove any fear of repercussions.

I, personally, don’t care. I’ve shared with a select few people and never had a problem, and I don’t play NM anymore.
I guess I just don’t understand the method behind this. Seems to me that if you want to discourage people from sharing, why not just delete all accounts associated with theft, punishing the thief and ‘idiot’, and preserving some semblance of a fair NM economy.

[JLH]

investigations would still need to be done, for example:
if person A wants to annoy person B, they yell to staff that person B's account was in fact their own (person A's) and that it was stolen.

i'm sorry, but we can't stop you giving your passwords out (although i am willing to bet you wouldn't give out your online banking details or credit card number, sure, there is a difference? or is there?)

[Stigmata]

Yes there is a slight difference - The reason people share on here is to aquire more wealth via means consisting of doing nothing at all.

If someone offered to share bank account details with me on the internet i'd be lying if I said i'd agree - But should they be wealthy and willing to share with me, I couldn't say that I would not be tempted. This sort of temptation is hard to resist for nightmist players who are generally too lazy to bother playing the game, but would obviously like as much power as possible. So player A offers to share his 5 arch masters aslong as he can use player B's Cobalt - you can see why sharing happens.

My point is no one would give out their details, account/bank/email whatever unless they were gaining something in return.

Edited by Stigmata, 25 February 2005 - 05:52 PM.

[deadman]

/t JLH should at least look into it even a little an see if ur positive who did it and if you are or they openly admit it do the old ways of perm banning it is necessary. Things have got way to out of hand bc their is no punishment.

[Fyara]

http://spaces.msn.co...rs/maharet-fos/ this is all i have 2 say

[Fossae]

I haven't been on forums for a long time so I can't say that I have read about

anything that has gone on lately. But I'm here to maybe see if something can be

done to possibly prevent theft of accounts. You know how you put your e-mail

account in your account info. Well I was thinking that you could just put a

password on characters you create and only you could remove. Making it

removable would make it possible to still sell/buy crits from other players. Also

what about making a square where it could possibly watch a trade and if

something goes wrong both players could be locked on the sqaure until the

crit/item is properly traded. I dunno what the Nightmist community will think of

this proposal but I am wanting to see what they think. Hopefully staffers won't be

lazy and not even take this into consideration about creating something like this.

[Matt]

As for laziness, you seem to have it confused with the desire not to spend hours searching logs and piecing together 'who dunnit' because some idiot can't keep his password to himself.

Can you justify why staff should spend hours log searching, and questioning people, just because some idiot insists on sharing? The answer is, no. There is no justification.

I don't expect you or JLH to go searching the logs to get someones things back that they lost due to their own stupidity.

But at least have the balls to admit that it is theft.

By the way, No Desire to spend hours searching the logs because someone was stupid is just being lazy because of the fact you have done it in the past.

Edited by Matt, 25 February 2005 - 09:23 PM.

[Pandilex]

As for laziness, you seem to have it confused with the desire not to spend hours searching logs and piecing together 'who dunnit' because some idiot can't keep his password to himself.

Can you justify why staff should spend hours log searching, and questioning people, just because some idiot insists on sharing? The answer is, no. There is no justification.

I don't expect you or JLH to go searching the logs to get someones things back that they lost due to their own stupidity.

But at least have the balls to admit that it is theft.

By the way, No Desire to spend hours searching the logs because someone was stupid is just being lazy because of the fact you have done it in the past.

What can I say? I keep posting that if you give someone something, they are not a thief for taking it!

I really don't care how many accounts are given away. I'd be interested to hear new ways of getting it into people's heads that they should keep their passwords to themselves though. This blatant posting about so called "notorious thieves" all over the forum should suggest to people that they are even MORE likely to be stolen from if they don't keep their passwords safe, but as we can see from another post, and other issues in the past, this is simply not the case!

I'm at a loss of what to do. People are looking for a scapegoat, but there are plenty of sharing incidents where people simply don't go posting publically about how stupid they were giving out their passwords. It will not eliminate the problem!

[alone]

and make you pay taxes.

I don't recall the Taxman ever giving us our gold back. So I've paid Nightmist taxes.

Proudly sharing accounts for over two years!

That's about all my input on this topic.

[Exodia]

yeh i shared for over 2 yrs already and i never got robbed yet

[Exor]

because you do all the robbing before they get a chance to =)

[Exodia]

no i juss never really shared wit ppl i didnt kno, only ppl i shared wit besides ed is andy/magoo(neither of us stole from eachother) and cliff/resisty(noone stole from eachother)

but ur a moron and missed the point of what i said in the above part....

[Gaddy]

You guys have to realize where JLH and Pandilex are comming from with this...
Why should they have to spend a ton of time looking into these 'thefts' where people just give out their passwords?
We don't want to spend the hours of time to help them get started again, nor do we want to spend the hours of time discussing what happend with everyone involved so we don't just see one side of the story...why should they?

But then, I've gotta wonder- What if I have my account stolen from me? I know, not think, know, that I am the only person who has the password to my account.
If I have my account stolen, how can I prove that? There are some ways that it could be taken though.
So it bothers me if staff will not even look into things that weren't a matter of sharing with the people/person who got the complainer's account or items.


With Kev and them getting robbed--that's BS. The chick used a messaging program and logged onto one of the guys sharie's old MSN names. That's something I think was handled poorly.
Then again, 4 people sharing an account is kind of ridiculous also, or was it 5 of them by that time? Kev, Alex, Tom, Bun, Craig...
I don't really think that many people should share an account, but then again, some people don't think I should be able to use all of my crits because they want an alt limit. So maybe it's just the fact that I can't do the sharing thing and they can that makes it seem unfair or poor to me.



As for ya'll, Ed and/or Bill, sharing with Andy-
Uhh...I remember a lot of problems arising between you guys and Andy. Something about "He came into my fking house!" as your response to some question I paged you.
I think the basics of it were that he may have taken something from you, and had to give you basically his whole account or whatever.

I don't know the whole story in detail, but I know that sharing didn't go over well. I was in Devout with Andy at the time and lot of the stuff came into CC with us trying to keep him from quitting or whatever he was suppose to do to make up for what he'd done.
^doesn't mean that Ed or Bill stole from Andy...possibly vise versa even.



If you don't read the whole response, or at least all of each paragraph you comment about---don't comment. I'm tired of writing things out and having people try to reply to a single sentence of what I say.
I don't read long paragraph responses either, but I don't try to quote little sections and flame.

-Gaddy

Edited by Gaddy, 26 February 2005 - 03:36 PM.

[Sneaky]

If you don't read the whole response, or at least all of each paragraph you comment about---don't comment. I'm tired of writing things out and having people try to reply to a single sentence of what I say.
I don't read long paragraph responses either, but I don't try to quote little sections and flame.

Let's make that apply to this entire topic. I spent a lot of time with the initial post. Don't ruin this topic by reading the title, one sentance, and posting "I agree, staff have bad judgement, Ed and Bill should be banned!"

Read all posts before making a comment, don't repeat what others are saying. Redundancy sucks.

[Limit]

Just keep telling the players how ignorant they are simon... do nothing about the theft... piss the whole nm community off.. if you have not noticed the majority of people for bans are quite a bit higher then not... and this includes people who dont even share themselves. Fact is if your not going to take care of the current nm how many people are gonna want to p2p on the new nm. Will staff get lazy there to? will they just randomly decide to say screw you players your on your own? At some point when you stopped caring you should have brought in someone who did. NM HAS ALWAYS HAD SHARING. ITS WHAT MAKES THE GAME. You cant stop it why not at least try to protect it. If its something you can deal w/easily.. then do it.. if its a long complicated process thats a different story. But i can name several stories that are clear and public to us all. Dont be afraid to do something now... it might be the best for NM.

If were not happy with our President we elect a new one. =) And it seems to work.

[Crane]

If were not happy with our President we elect a new one. =) And it seems to work.

So why is Bush still in office?

Back to the point . . . if people stopped sharing, especially with people whom are known to be untrustworthy, most of these issues of 'theft' will vanish. People should listen to their instincts and use a bit of common sense when it comes to sharing; it is very easy to use a disguise when you are only identified by a screen name, so people that seem friendly and trustworthy may be anything but, and the moment you give them the keys to your account, they ransack it. If you do plan to share, make sure it is someone you know in real life, at the very least.

This has probably been mentioned already, but I can understand why people want to share - to gain more power, equipment, high-level crits and such - to be brutally honest, to some, it might simply be laziness. True, it can be very hard and frustrating to train crits, but is it not more satisfying when you successfully reach level 30 and you did all the work by yourself?

[tool]

Seems to me that if you want to discourage people from sharing, why not just delete all accounts associated with theft, punishing the thief and ‘idiot’, and preserving some semblance of a fair NM economy.

i was just thinking this same thought. If the thieves and the viktem are both punished, it would result in a drastic reduction of sharing, hence drasticaly reducing "theft".

It may seem harsh and unfair to ban and delete stuff someone worked so hard at obtaining, but in the end, theft would be reduced drastically. Something has got to be done, and sometimes when anarchy rules, drastic measure must be taken.

Food for thought?

[Malavon]

ITS WHAT MAKES THE GAME. 

That is quite possibly the largest *BLEEP!* comment ive ever heard on this forum.

I don't recall the Taxman ever giving us our gold back. So I've paid Nightmist taxes.

Proudly sharing accounts for over two years!

That's about all my input on this topic.

Oh, and what useful input it was.

Need I say more? - Crane

Edited by Crane, 26 February 2005 - 05:56 PM.