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        Individual Class Discussion >> Thief Class Discussion >> Thief Class Discussion
        
(Message started by: Pandilex on 11/25/03 at 14:23:22)
Title: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Pandilex on 11/25/03 at 14:23:22
To further improve the balance of classes in Nightmist, I'd like everyone who visits this forum to post, sensibly, what changes they believe should be made to thiefs. How are they overpowered? How are they underpowered?

I'd like information in great detail, and I'd also like to know how you think they weigh up against the other classes. Which other classes are more powerful? Why?

I need to know how I should change the class to improve it further. To make it easier, I'm asking everyone who has played or played againsit a thief to post their opinions.


To structure this thread better, I would like people to use bullet points to state each piece of information clearly.

If you agree or disagree with another person, simply state that you disagree with [this statement] because ____

If you don't stick to this I will delete your posts, regardless of their contents, because I need to be able to read the information easily, and it makes it much easier when I can see clearly which suggestions are favoured by the majority.
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Eternyte on 11/25/03 at 16:53:21
1) Thives should be able to 'assassinate' any opponent. I think only from covert though, as it is a hidden ability. Not from covert should be able to, but only if the damage done if enough.

2) Thieves should hit a lot more than they do, however, they shouldn't hit 100% of the time for massive damage, but perhaps 80% of the time, with a lot at reduced damage.

3) Thieves should dodge a lot of the blows, they usually get clicked by fighters/ranger/berserkers because of their lower armor.

4) Gives thieves a useful poison dagger, one that hits for less than normal daggers say 25 base damage, but poisons for 50. There isn't enough use of the spell cleanse.



*Please note I have considered this class and information within from an unaided point of view*
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Epic on 11/25/03 at 20:09:14
I think they should be able to move around covert better without losing so much stamina. Also i think they should have higher armor cause i mean its just to low right now  8)

..PeAcE
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Mephistroth on 11/25/03 at 22:39:06

on 11/25/03 at 16:53:21, Eternyte wrote:
1) Thives should be able to 'assassinate' any opponent. I think only from covert though, as it is a hidden ability. Not from covert should be able to, but only if the damage done if enough.


I'm not sure if I agree with this. I think that you should actually have to spend a lot more time planning this 'assassination'. Either rename it to back stab or something, or actually make it so the thief actually has to spend some time planning his ambush etc. (basically I don't want people to run around and then 'assassinate' someone instantly. Personally I think an assassination would require more time. A back stab however, wouldn't)
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Stotic on 11/25/03 at 23:14:17
-Assassination should be what it is.  Maybe only allow it to be used when your opponent is mort and then have an ability such as Back Stab that takes assassinate's place.
-Maybe some poison or trap abilities.
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by CPG on 11/26/03 at 01:11:03
Increase Thieves' melee abilities.

Poison daggers and/or abilities.

Introduce another ability like back stab. Make assassinate a finishing blow. Back stab should not be able to kill somebody in one click. Assassinate would kill if the target has a low amount of HP.

Steal better from players.
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Sausage on 11/26/03 at 01:39:26
If you think about this realisticly then someone is more then capable of sneeking up behind someone and slitting their throat, killing them instantly. But then again it's the unrealistic things that make this game so much fun. :D

To be honest.. I'm not sure what I think of this whole thing. I do agree with more armor and a poision ability. I'm not so unsure that assassinate shouldn't just be kept the way it is..
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by dognapot on 11/26/03 at 19:43:44
call me crazy but when thieves are changed it sucks, so changes should be at a severe minimum.

1. make stealing the equivalent to what it was around spring 2001.

2. remove armor from the equation when assassinate is done while covert.

3. leave everything else alone! for the love of god!

seriously, thieves don't need alot of improvement and whenever they're tinkered with, things go too far in any direction and take forever to be resolved (i.e. stealing). so please, don't go fixing things that aren't broken.
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by alone on 11/26/03 at 19:54:06

on 11/26/03 at 19:43:44, dognapot wrote:
2. remove armor from the equation when assassinate is done while covert.


Armor isn't taken into the equation anyway.. Or do you mean, take it out when covert. But have it in when assassinating from the open?
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by dognapot on 11/26/03 at 20:11:09
i believe armor is in the equation regardless of visibility. the point was to make a covert assassinate more deadly. if your victim isn't aware of your presence it should be easier to make a precise attack. however, overt assassination shouldn't be weakened an aversed respect.

most importantly is number 3.
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Snowy on 11/26/03 at 20:23:25
ok, but a poison dagger would be nice  ;D
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Sausage on 11/26/03 at 22:28:28

on 11/26/03 at 19:43:44, dognapot wrote:
1. make stealing the equivalent to what it was around spring 2001.

Dear god, how could I have forgotten. Very good point.
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by CPG on 11/27/03 at 04:08:15
I wish there was a way to increase stealing without it affecting powertraining. If stealing is raised, then powertraining will be a million times easier.

Ooh! I know!

Cap the XP at 1000 gold, instead of 2000. That way stealing % could be raised without making powertraining easier. Harder in fact. Then Thieves could actually thieve well! Most monsters don't have enough gold to steal more than 1000 at a time from, so it won't affect the XP gained from regular stealing.
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Rafie_Khan on 11/27/03 at 15:13:42

Quote:
If you think about this realisticly then someone is more then capable of sneeking up behind someone and slitting their throat, killing them instantly. But then again it's the unrealistic things that make this game so much fun.


I think he's right. if you make the game to realistic then its going to become a hassle instead of a game.I would say assassinate is on the boarder line of real/unreal which makes it perfect for the game. Games arn't really meant to be real. I say leave assassinate the way it is.
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Bean on 11/27/03 at 19:39:40
1)Assassinates from covert should deal far more damage than an out in the open assassinate... for obvious reasons.

2)Stealing gold needs to be put back the way it was at before.

And thats really all that needs to be done....  :-/

Next class!
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Snowy on 11/27/03 at 20:39:25
Idk if its a bug, but i think that a coverted thief that runs out of stamina should be able to come back to the open any time. Its not that hard to leave the "shadows". And when i make /covert while coverted and without stamine it gives me this message " You are too exhausted at the moment. ".
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Mephistroth on 11/27/03 at 20:42:50

on 11/27/03 at 20:39:25, Snowy wrote:
Idk if its a bug, but i think that a coverted thief that runs out of stamina should be able to come back to the open any time. Its not that hard to leave the "shadows".


You don't seem to understand it.. when you have no stamina it means, you have no stamina. Your too tired to move, therefore you can't move out of the shadows.
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Snowy on 11/27/03 at 20:58:43
yeah.. but i can scream on the square call ppl noobs fart and do whatever...
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Snowy on 11/27/03 at 21:00:02

on 11/27/03 at 20:42:50, Mephistroth wrote:
You don't seem to understand it..


good point by the way, cuz i dont
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by dognapot on 11/28/03 at 00:52:21

on 11/27/03 at 04:08:15, CPG wrote:
I wish there was a way to increase stealing without it affecting powertraining. If stealing is raised, then powertraining will be a million times easier.

Ooh! I know!

Cap the XP at 1000 gold, instead of 2000. That way stealing % could be raised without making powertraining easier. Harder in fact. Then Thieves could actually thieve well! Most monsters don't have enough gold to steal more than 1000 at a time from, so it won't affect the XP gained from regular stealing.



you're wrong. if thieves steal a higher percentage (as they should), they'll train slower.
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by CPG on 11/28/03 at 02:09:27
That's what I was getting at. I guess I didn't word it too well. It would solve the powertraining "problem" and allow Thieves to steal like they should. If you want to powertrain your Thieves, the go right ahead. It will still be a monotonous task, just a longer monotonous task.

And by stealing % I meant successful chance to steal. Not how much stolen. If the amount stolen was increased, that would make it a lot harder to powertrain as well.
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by dognapot on 11/28/03 at 07:10:45
that doesn't make sense either because powertraining is best done on monsters that are easy to steal from, only a fool would powertrain on something that they can't steal from often. it's like when you're training on bears, how does raising the success rate affect you? after level 6 you can steal often enough for powertraining to be worthwhile.

just restoring thieves to thier former abilities is good enough. it makes powertraining a little harder, but most importantly makes stealing usefull for things other than powertraining. things like robbing people.
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by ethereal_chant on 11/29/03 at 06:41:05
Make the able to steal items like potions or crystals, and mabye weapons and armor.When they are level 30 they should have a 1% chance to steal a equiped armor or weapon.
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Silex on 11/29/03 at 07:12:53

on 11/26/03 at 19:43:44, dognapot wrote:
call me crazy but when thieves are changed it sucks, so changes should be at a severe minimum.

1. make stealing the equivalent to what it was around spring 2001.

2. remove armor from the equation when assassinate is done while covert.

3. leave everything else alone! for the love of god!

seriously, thieves don't need alot of improvement and whenever they're tinkered with, things go too far in any direction and take forever to be resolved (i.e. stealing). so please, don't go fixing things that aren't broken.


-not sure what steal was way back when but now that the thief is gone from the malok area it sure as hell is useless seeing as it never really works well to use on other players and no one ever does it and all it does is get me from lvl 10 to lvl 21 real quick.

-assassinate idea i agree with, although i am pretty sure it basically ignores armor as it is, i think it should only entirly ignore armor while the thief is covert and maybe only 40-75% ignored when they're visible.  Making it his more or less doesnt seem needed, and hitting for less ammounts makes it not much of an assassination type of thing, it should be how it is.

-moving covert should be easier, much easier, for high lvl thieves.

-they should have atleast as much armor as a ranger, take some away from rangers or add it to thieves is all that makes sense to me.
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Snowy on 11/29/03 at 10:01:39
I dont think they should be able to steal equiped weapons/armors/items, but they should be able to steal stuff that are in ur inv. For ppl who say its not fair, it wont change that much, u dont have valuabe stuff in ur inv that often do u, and if u do then if u die u will drop em anyways, besides it would make 'thieves' to thieves. Oh.. it could be a different ability and it should be easier to spot a thief taking ur items then cash.
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Big_Tymer666 on 11/30/03 at 04:11:14
Stealing should just stay how it is for powertraining cause why would u steal someones gold when u can just assassinate them and get the gold anyay? And u guys are trying to get so many improvments on theives to help them indivdualy..theives are more of a team class. If u have one expert theif most likely ur not gonna kill a expert fighter, berzerker or probaly not even a ranger.. but if u have like 3 of them then u could really own some people. I think theives should just stay the same cause i dont see anything wrong with them as long as they are a group.
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Snowy on 11/30/03 at 07:12:57

Thats why stealing has to be better, to make ppl use the crit as a 'thief' not an 'assasin' or change thier name. Also.. if someone is better then you and u know u cant just assasinate him, then u steal.
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Carpe_Noctem on 11/30/03 at 11:03:56
First of all, I duel alot on my thief... I have noticed this.

On a zerker <wich has no armor> I have dealt 297 dmg unspelled several times, <I have also missed alot of times with my 23 dex thief on a 18 dex zerker>
The zerker tends to hit me more than I hit it, even though I have 5 more dexterity <*shrugs*

I have hit rangers for 250 or something like that, in my 1250 duels against clannie rangers, And people tell me they don't believe that Assassinate get soaked by armor?

Anyone who has ever had a thief can notice the difference of a hit on a Zerker and a ranger <i.e.>

Further more thief AC is way to low, it's pretty useless for a crit who's supposed to be the equivalent of Rangers and Zerkers.

I'm not one of those who prefer running around with a Druid and 15 arch thieves in tow, Takes the entire idea out of this game, and it's just senseless slaughter. But let's face it anyone who knows todays thieves know they are useless for fighting with as only 1 alt.

I would like thieves to be able to compete, so cut the Armor soaked in Assassinates <it has to be something or Zerks are just badly scripted> Raise AC it's useless in moshes now a days when people say "Let's take out the thief, less AC" and then they die.
DON'T lower dmg the entire Idea of an assassinate is to kill people.
And if killing doesn't work with an "ASSASSINATE" <read the word, think of the meaning> then what's the point of that abillity.

Fighters can round stuff.... Zerkers can round stuff... Rangers can round stuff.

Make thieves able to round other stuff than adepts <and hardly adept zerkers get's clicked now a days>

Thanks for your time
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Mephistroth on 11/30/03 at 11:34:29

on 11/30/03 at 11:03:56, Carpe_Noctem wrote:
Fighters can round stuff.... Zerkers can round stuff... Rangers can round stuff.

Make thieves able to round other stuff than adepts <and hardly adept zerkers get's clicked now a days


You really don't have any idea do you? Fighters.. rounding something? Not a chance lol

It seems to me like you think thieves should have their assassinate improved.. which seems pretty stupid to me. Assassinate is already just about right damage wise. The only problems I think it has have been mentioned earlier.

Thieves are fine. The only thing they need is the steal changed, and, imo anyway, the assassinate system needs a total change. But as nobody agrees with me on that I guess that won't be happening lol
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Snowy on 11/30/03 at 11:42:51
assasinate should be improved.. it makes funny dmg... ::)
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Bean on 11/30/03 at 19:42:55
Like I said, covert assassinates should do more damage
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by dognapot on 12/01/03 at 02:20:41

on 11/30/03 at 04:11:14, Big_Tymer666 wrote:
Stealing should just stay how it is for powertraining cause why would u steal someones gold when u can just assassinate them and get the gold anyay? And u guys are trying to get so many improvments on theives to help them indivdualy..theives are more of a team class. If u have one expert theif most likely ur not gonna kill a expert fighter, berzerker or probaly not even a ranger.. but if u have like 3 of them then u could really own some people. I think theives should just stay the same cause i dont see anything wrong with them as long as they are a group.


you have no idea how much fun it was to rob people, and you have no idea how much fun the game used to be before it became mandatory to have a D&D/final fantasy party for each individual player to get by.
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Stotic on 12/01/03 at 03:20:46

on 11/30/03 at 04:11:14, Big_Tymer666 wrote:
Stealing should just stay how it is for powertraining cause why would u steal someones gold when u can just assassinate them and get the gold anyay? And u guys are trying to get so many improvments on theives to help them indivdualy..theives are more of a team class. If u have one expert theif most likely ur not gonna kill a expert fighter, berzerker or probaly not even a ranger.. but if u have like 3 of them then u could really own some people. I think theives should just stay the same cause i dont see anything wrong with them as long as they are a group.

If anything thieves should be a less-party oriented class.
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Bean on 12/01/03 at 04:57:49
Exactly...

All this talk of D&D, Im gonna go dig up my old D&D books....


Edit: wtf is dnd.... stupid brain
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Claw on 12/23/03 at 01:54:33
DO NOTHING TO THIEFS!!!!!!
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Haunted on 12/23/03 at 04:35:15
Improve their stealing.
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Claw on 12/23/03 at 13:30:30

on 12/23/03 at 04:35:15, Haunted wrote:
Improve their stealing.


Now that would be nice i guess  :P
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Rappy_Ninja on 12/26/03 at 22:42:27
make it so they steal more and can steal from dif monsters on a square (not just the top one)

and its harder to spot them while moveing covert
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Tienno on 01/13/04 at 12:43:10
1) Inventory Stealing i think is a good idea, the point I would like to raise is...... Monsters drop items, surely then these items are classed as in their inventory?? would this mean thieves would be able to steal Halberds etc? I think this would make thieves a very usefull comodity.
2) Covert is a great tool, I believe that the stamina effect should be less than it is now and for a 5 stamina thief they should be able to travel further.
3) The damage thing when covert is something that i believe needs working on. Assassinate to me suggests a hidden and surprise attack which causes anormous damage. So when covert i believe it should do exceptional damage. When out in the open its hard to believe that a thief can ask its aopponant to turn round and count to ten while i attack again. So while covert the damage should be high and attacks i believe should be singular rather than a 3 stamina or 5 stamina grouped attack when out in the open. Or if they are allowed 3 stamina attacks they should be lesser damage than covert
4) As for armour i am not sure which way to go. A thief is a shadow creature so doesnt exactly plan to be attacked therefore usually doesnt carry too much armour. However the way it is at the moment thiefs usually come off worse against open play attacks and this can be a problem. So maybe mythril or light armour that has decent protection might be a possiblity?


I use thieves more than others and i would love things to be more even and balanced. So any suggestions that are use im glad to give.



Tienno
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Sausage on 01/14/04 at 01:01:17
Totally agree with everything you said Tienno. But thieves should not be able to steal from monsters/bosses. I think armor is fine. As long as they're improved somewhere else. Like steal and assassinate when covert. But nothing will happen for awhile. *looks at pandilex's post in discussion*
Title: Re: Thief Class Discussion
Post by Snowy on 01/23/04 at 15:15:46
they should be able to steal items, yah


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