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Title: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Pandilex on 11/25/03 at 14:22:45 To further improve the balance of classes in Nightmist, I'd like everyone who visits this forum to post, sensibly, what changes they believe should be made to ranger. How are they overpowered? How are they underpowered? I'd like information in great detail, and I'd also like to know how you think they weigh up against the other classes. Which other classes are more powerful? Why? I need to know how I should change the class to improve it further. To make it easier, I'm asking everyone who has played or played againsit a ranger to post their opinions. To structure this thread better, I would like people to use bullet points to state each piece of information clearly. If you agree or disagree with another person, simply state that you disagree with [this statement] because ____ If you don't stick to this I will delete your posts, regardless of their contents, because I need to be able to read the information easily, and it makes it much easier when I can see clearly which suggestions are favoured by the majority. |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Eternyte on 11/25/03 at 16:50:13 1) Rangers need to hit slightly less often, but for more damage. Rangers are distance attacker, some arrows are going to miss, however, the ones that hit are going to be well places and hurt. 2) Hypotise needs to be a touch more effective, however, it should not be able to be casted upon someone who is already under its effects. 3) Rangers should lose their shields, a ranger cannot use his bow and arrow effectively while carrying a shield. 4) If possible replace shield with a quiver, and introduce arrows, like mana crystals for mages. A ranger would need to carry arrows, maybe they could carry a small knife in a bracelet spot incase they do run out, or have an attack without arrows. i.e. swining their bows. Also have varying sizes of quivers to allow more space for arrows. 5) Flaming arrow needs to be more prominent. If an arrow that is on fire hits you, it's gonna hurt you more than one that isn't. Perhaps 50dmg extra if it is successful. *Please note I have considered this class and information within from an unaided point of view* |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Epic on 11/25/03 at 20:06:54 Flaming arrow - Needs to do more then its dmg and poison for..3(is it?) Like Eternyte said if your getting hit wit an arrow thats flaming its gonna hurt a lil bit so tap on an extra 10-25dmg and make flaming aarow hit a lil less often so its not to powerful Hypnotise - Should make others miss a lil bit more i think, and i think you should be able to hypno people that are already hypno'd just because..well if someones actually hypno'd you could do it again i would think ..PeAcE |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Mephistroth on 11/25/03 at 22:37:06 I have two main problems with rangers: 1. Being able to use shields AND fire a bow at the same time. In reality this isn't possible. Remove the shield and possibly add in a quiver (as Eternyte suggested) 2. Flaming arrow. This should do more damage than it does already. Rapid fire does more damage and all in one click. A level 23 ability better than a level 28 one? This shouldn't be happening. Either raise one or lower the other. |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Stotic on 11/25/03 at 22:57:07 - Remove shield and add an arrow system like everyone else has mentioned. ;) They should be a scout class, not a fighter class. - I also find that they should achieve some actual abilities that relate to arrow shooting to replace the odd rapid fire. I have suggested some ideas in the past where arrows could attack someone like 5 squares away. More details in that post though. |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by CPG on 11/26/03 at 01:04:28 Rapid Fire should hit for less, and less often. Also agreeing about the shield/bow/arrow issue. Make them skilled Archers, not bow wielding death machines. |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Jace_Risky on 11/29/03 at 06:04:43 I agree to the Quiver/Shield idea though might I suggest that if Rangers were to not wield shields that they be a bit like berserkers, who can't where armor, that the Ranger gain a bit more hp to make up for the shield. They should increase in hp at level by around 11-13 hp, which could be their average gain, but if that's too much to make up for the shield then I'm sorry. On the Rapid Fire idea, I've heard mentioned ideas about something called Aimed Shot, which could replace Rapid Fire as the title of it. Think of it as kind of a Sniper shot to the direct weak point. You pulled back full on your bow and shot straight at their weak point causing ???(unsure) amount of damage it can be something like that when it's fired. The Aimed Shot may not be as powerful as Rapid Fire(though I forgot how much it does), but just about under the amount of damage it does. Considering its damage done, it won't miss as much, counting the idea of having no shield. Its likeliablity to miss would be around 15%-30%. This is all I have to post as of now but I may post other players ideas or some of my ideas again soon enough. |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Bacardi on 11/29/03 at 06:09:29 just to let ya know rangers shouldnt be messed with anymore than they already have. Rangers use to be the best class in game until everyone who didnt have one whined till they were made to nuts... now i dont even use rangers meanwhile having some of the best in the game. They arent as good as they used to be, not even close. I think rangers have been thrashed and bashed enough... they dont need to be messed up anymore than they already have been. |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Silex on 11/29/03 at 07:05:33 lol, i think people have to fear my 3 lvl 21 zerkers more than my 3 lvl 28 rangers...maybe thats just cause i run around with full spells on all the time though..i guess the zerkers would miss more if they werent RFed.. -i agree that rangers should have smaller shields, i.e. steel bracers -i dont really like the idea of arrows that you have to buy like mana and such...just because it'd make it harder ::) -rapid fire w/o spells misses just fine, i think the ammount it hits with RF on should be reduced a tad, especially on other crits -hypno does seem to pretty much screw people over in deuls if you use it in combo with divine light...no one touches you lol -and with the arrow being on fire it sure as hell would seem that it ought to deal a good ammount of damage...more than a non-flamming arrow at the least. |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Snowy on 11/30/03 at 07:43:55 u dont like arrows? then u can buy a fancy short sword, or a cobalt ;) |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by alone on 11/30/03 at 12:29:15 on 11/30/03 at 07:43:55, Snowy wrote:
FSS is a drop ;) Oh, and id like to see arrows. Would make fights more interesting.. Same as id like to see dura on fighter/berserker weapons. |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Snowy on 11/30/03 at 21:15:24 would be nice, if u could repair them of course |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Bacardi on 12/01/03 at 10:47:38 lol cobalt blows on rangers |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Rappy_Ninja on 12/02/03 at 21:36:30 NO! dont make rangers any worse :-X |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by alicia on 12/05/03 at 02:07:54 if rangers just lose the shield they will be worthless... under 60 hp w/o mods and 260-280hp average.... and thats perfect archmasters (Low level rangers are utterly useless) ... whoever sed they should be like 'scouts' remember... to attack you need to be able to see your opponent, one NM square = bow/beam range and nm does not distinguish between hitting the guy stood next to you fighting with a sword or him/her stood 150 yards away launching arrows or 'summoning a beam of light' at you... heres a summary of the 'hardness' of the classes zerkers = very high hp, no AC fighters = high hp, high ac pallys = good hp, good ac, dex mods thieves = good hp, ok ac, usually covert so they cant be attacked rangers = ok hp, good ac, reduce-hit-chance spells druids = ok hp, ok ac, good AC mods clerics = poor hp, ok ac, good AC mods, dex mods, reduce-hit-chance spells mage = very low hp, very low ac, good AC mods, usually invis so they cant be attacked also, i made a list of 'actual hp' values, meaning the amount of damage that you need to do to a perfect arch with best normally-availiable eq and its own spells, note these arent perfect, im guessing at the classes ive never had a high lev of Actual hp (Amount of damage you actually need to do to the class to kill it, taking armour, EQ, and self-spells into account) Best eq courtesy of jurians awesome eq proggy :) Dwarf Zerker (500hp, 0AC) - 500hp Dwarf Fighter (99ac, 350hp) - 693hp Ling Fighter (106hp, 310hp) - 660hp Ling Pally - (90ac, 295hp) - 536hp Ling Ranger - (94ac, 275hp) - 519hp Elf Druid - (82ac, 260hp, 63ac spells) - 945hp (441 unspelled) Elf Cleric - (80ac, 255hp, 61ac spells) - 895hp (425 unspelled) Dwarf Cleric - (80ac, 300hp, 58ac spells) - 968hp (488 unspelled) Elf Mage - (54ac, 225hp, 96ac spells) - 900hp (308 unspelled) Ling ranger without shield - (74ac, 275hp) - 437hp So from this we can tell... NOTE... Dex is not taken into account, this affects rangers, elf clerics, all lings and pallys most, 1) Zerkers arnt that tough, any class with full mods is harder to kill (we'll deal with assassinate/smite later) 2)Unspelled clerics/mages/druids are weak, spelled they are better then any other class 3)Shieldless rangers would be crap For whoever was ranting about the cleric with 4 RotW's and a SA, remember each RotW reduces armour by 4 (3 for loss of the cr, 1 for -1 on rotw) This makes - 300hp, 64ac, 71 spelled ac, giving 923hp. Which is not as good as the cleric with CR's edit - assassinate/smite values are wrong and are removed, not sure how much armour affects these attacks These values are to do with pvp so ive excluded pacifists |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Bean on 12/05/03 at 05:31:02 Uh... WHAT? Those values make little to no sense.... what are the equations behind them.... why does AC affect hp? You didnt explain ANYTHING there... Explain that So I may understand what it was exactly you were trying to say ??? |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by alicia on 12/05/03 at 22:41:37 lol.. it means - a fighter with 99AC and 350HP and a zerker with 0AC and 693hp can take about the same amount of damage before dying AC dosnt increase hp but it reduces damage... the final HP value is the equivilant hp if you had no armour (if you were a zerker) ie - a ranger hits a zerker for five 110's (550 damage) This would kill the zerker However the same round against the above fighter would be reduced by AC and woudnt be a kill.. the fighter would have about 1-(550-693)*350 = 72hp left |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Mephistroth on 12/05/03 at 22:54:41 And what evidence is there that you didn't just make up those stats to fit your post? |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Sausage on 12/05/03 at 22:56:44 Test it yourself then. |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by freebird on 12/06/03 at 07:01:35 /clap /clap one more... /clap wow... takes a drunken fool to understand that : wow, took 5 min to type this post correctly |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Mephistroth on 12/06/03 at 12:18:18 on 12/05/03 at 22:56:44, Sausage wrote:
lol, i'm going to level up every class and race combo to level 30, buy the best equip and stick it on them.. just to find out if the stats are made up? Right.. Smart thinking there ::) |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Mephistroth on 12/06/03 at 12:19:32 on 12/05/03 at 02:07:54, alicia wrote:
Unspelled mage? Yeah.. I must admit without enhance and RF my mage is crap at casting beam... |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Sojourn on 12/07/03 at 02:27:55 She was talking about armor spells... AoP ring a bell? |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by alicia on 12/07/03 at 02:54:39 spells: cleric AR and CoD mage AoP druid SF and GB and no i didnt make up the stats... used 3 values i knew were correct and made formulae to match if anyone wants to post any arch hp/ac and ill give you the final hp value And before you say, yes armour can completely absorb/partially absorb ect. normal hits, the numbers i gave apply mainly to rapid fire and berserk (which are always deflected buy the same amount, unlike normal attacks) |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Sausage on 12/07/03 at 16:38:30 on 12/06/03 at 12:18:18, Mephistroth wrote:
Ya, I was being sarcastic and was trying to say you'll just have to trust it. |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by GoD_oF_bLaCk_DeAtH on 12/07/03 at 22:54:22 Rangers need NO changes. There fine how they are. :-X |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Sausage on 12/07/03 at 23:05:39 What's your highest level ranger? |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Rappy_Ninja on 12/08/03 at 19:03:07 on 12/07/03 at 23:05:39, Sausage wrote:
actually he is right they dont need much changed with them :-X |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Snowy on 12/08/03 at 20:32:37 Yeah, give em the second shield in other hand and let them fire their bows using their mouths... :o |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Zap on 12/08/03 at 21:43:51 How difficult, shooting arrows from yer mouth... |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Jurian on 12/09/03 at 09:14:00 on 12/06/03 at 12:18:18, Mephistroth wrote:
i just need a lvl 30 druid for that :D too bad i sold mine at lvl 28 lol |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Mephistroth on 12/09/03 at 17:13:06 lol, druids are d**n good. With the amount of gold you have you could get a pretty decent one :P |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Zap on 12/09/03 at 19:10:38 Druid chat in a Ranger class discussion? We're digressing slightly. |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Claw on 12/16/03 at 03:26:09 on 12/09/03 at 19:10:38, Zap wrote:
exactly... also I still dont think there should be any changes....... I mean rangers aren't that good.. any zerker/druid/fighter/some pallys can take a ranger out... :-/ |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Chaos on 12/16/03 at 14:42:09 I think rangers are fine the way they are, but maybe lowering the accuracy of rapid fire wouldn't be a bad idea. Rangers are slightly overpower. At equal lvls, the only thing that can take them (without some luck) is a zerker and most druids. But anyway, I say you lower there hit rate on rapid fire. |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Claw on 12/17/03 at 03:35:46 on 12/16/03 at 14:42:09, Chaos wrote:
NO! i have 21 dex but still i only hit with all 4 stamina like 1/10 of the time, I usually only hit with 2... |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Chaos on 12/17/03 at 14:43:33 Well, you must have some very bad luck ;D I always get rapid fired at and I have never survived it, even with equal LVL characters and it doesn't take everyone to hit either.... or course... maybe I just have bad luck?!? O.o |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Claw on 12/19/03 at 00:36:46 lol, I get berserked at for an insane amount of damage and they usually hit so I don't see why ppl can complain about any class BUT zerkers.... |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Rappy_Ninja on 12/21/03 at 21:40:43 on 12/17/03 at 14:43:33, Chaos wrote:
Ranger with rf and enhance or you are just unlucky |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Mephistroth on 12/22/03 at 09:40:26 on 12/19/03 at 00:36:46, Claw wrote:
Go read the berserker thread, then open that stupid mouth of yours. |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Claw on 12/23/03 at 01:39:45 ok I will. Now how about you shut your stupid mouth fool. |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Kazul on 12/29/03 at 17:37:39 rangers used to be a bit overpowered, but they lowered their accuracy and damage, i used to do 90's w/my human rangers, now 60's-70's w/o enhance. You don't know what your talking about, just cause a certain class kicks ur a$$ doesn't mean they need to be changed. Maybe it just means you suck. |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Hexagram on 12/29/03 at 21:13:09 Indeed. Rangers used to be hardly ever used and the few that were around were less than great. Then there was a huge change in the class and they became basically the best class-along came the armies of lvl 30 rangers. After being slightly toned down to what they are now they seem pretty good, but not overpowered. |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Snowy on 01/28/04 at 20:25:28 Yeah, leave them the way they are. They're not overpowered. Only classes that need work are mages & fighters oh.. and maybe take away zerkers 6th stam (by the way, delete pacis) |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by xcelon on 02/02/04 at 12:31:46 I think that rangers are given to much power, when they get to archie they are unstoppable. I think that they're power should be limited. ::) |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by alone on 02/02/04 at 13:25:21 Rangers are in no way unstoppable.. Against other arch crits, they're not that great.. And compaired to the abilities of a Druid (if both are used to their full potential), I don't think a Ranger would stand much of a chance. The main reason I keep some Rangers is due to them being so useful at most bosses, other than that Thieves can everything I need. |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Everlast on 02/04/04 at 06:50:34 True. Rangers have too much armor in my opinion though---that is the only thing i see as overpowered about them. They help a lot at bosses...rangers/zerkers with spells would be my pick over any other class to use at bosses. They're good for pking..but theives are better. Thieves can come invis without a mage casting invis on your whole party, and they do not need spells to be absolutly devestating. |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Xcelon on 02/09/04 at 11:24:57 But they use shields?!? How can ya pull an arrow, hold a bow and hold a shield at the same time? Its just not posibble :P |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Issy on 02/10/04 at 10:53:54 on 02/09/04 at 11:24:57, Xcelon wrote:
Thats been argued before. I made the example of the shields used in LoTR, when the orcs were attacking frodo and his part. They had shields that slid over their forearm and when pulling back the bow, would no-way hinder the shot. (In realistic terms(for the bow hunters) it would infact hinder the shot alittle) Taking away shields on a ranger would just be bad karma. |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by alone on 02/10/04 at 11:17:25 Was it ever said Stances would be put in at some stage? Or was it just left? Cus if they were to be put in, Defencive - Shield up (meaning you get the protection, but can't shoot). Offensive - Shield by your side (so no protection, and able to shoot) |
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Title: Re: Ranger Class Discussion Post by Well Tucked Wedgie on 02/16/04 at 00:35:28 Stances were suggested for fighters. |
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