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        Individual Class Discussion >> Fighter Class Discussion >> Fighter Class Discussion
        
(Message started by: Pandilex on 11/25/03 at 14:20:06)

Title: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Pandilex on 11/25/03 at 14:20:06

To further improve the balance of classes in Nightmist, I'd like everyone who visits this forum to post, sensibly, what changes they believe should be made to fighters. How are they overpowered? How are they underpowered?

I'd like information in great detail, and I'd also like to know how you think they weigh up against the other classes. Which other classes are more powerful? Why?

I need to know how I should change the class to improve it further. To make it easier, I'm asking everyone who has played or played againsit a fighter to post their opinions.

To structure this thread better, I would like people to use bullet points to state each piece of information clearly.

If you agree or disagree with another person, simply state that you disagree with [this statement] because ____

If you don't stick to this I will delete your posts, regardless of their contents, because I need to be able to read the information easily, and it makes it much easier when I can see clearly which suggestions are favoured by the majority.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Eternyte on 11/25/03 at 16:30:58

1) Fighters need too hit a little more often, and get hit slightly less often. Their armor should be far superior naturally to any other class. Perhaps a class bonus of 10ac can be added to fighter.

2) More variety in armors, perhaps with + and - stats, so there would be a variation on the strategy in balancing your fighter. Perhaps the oportunity to drop the shield and equip a secondary wepon. The damage received must just about balance out the damage done. The same wepon cannot be double equiped i.e. no fighter with 2 halberds.

3) Make fighters the only class with 6 stamina, it's their main trait.

4) Fighters need more abilities (I posted some when the forums were initiated). These included a 2 stamina attack. The damage would be doubled from a normal attack, but due to the fact is 1 double hit misses is like losing 2 stamina, the damage would be large.

*Please note I have considered this class and information within from an unaided point of view*

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Epic on 11/25/03 at 19:54:26

As of right now Fighters are not to good...

I think since they are a FIGHTING class maybe they should get 7 stam :o , their attacks get blocked/absorbed waaay to much and they are kinda useless really. Duel wield is a wonderful idea (cobalt and hally :o ) i mean since fighting is wut they do they should be better at it therfor having more attacks, hit more and dodge more often..i say give the class an armor boost also

..PeAcE

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Mephistroth on 11/25/03 at 22:32:24

on 11/25/03 at 16:30:58, Eternyte wrote:

The same wepon cannot be double equiped i.e. no fighter with 2 halberds.

I don't see why they shouldn't be able to dual wield two of the same weapons (unless of course there two handed weapons, like the halberd is) I do agree with letting them use two weapons at once, I think it would make one of the worst classes semi decent.

As Eternyte said, they need to actually hit more often. For a fighting class, their attacks get absorbed/dodged way too often.

I also think it would be quite cool if they could parry, and then riposte. Fighters should be experts at melee combat, so I expect they'd actually be able to parry and counter attack.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Stotic on 11/25/03 at 23:06:14

- I do not agree with double-wielding weapons. The value of armor doesn't even come close to matching the value of attacking with two weapons (more damage). There'd have to be a significant downsize on defense for me to consider it. Maybe a significant lowering of dex?

-Possibly a chant/yell that makes monsters that have lower dex (or something) run away. (disappear, unless its possible to add the ability to make them move a square away)

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Deval on 11/25/03 at 23:36:36

As just about everyone has mentioned, fighters need an increase in their damage/absorbtion area. A fighter, considering they are the expert combatant we naturally imagine them to be, would have a considerable knowledge of vital areas to strike an opponent, and the weak/exposed areas of an opponents armour. I find it hard to fathom that someone could call themself an archmaster fighter, yet have no idea how to efficiently penetrate an opponents defenses.
Another idea would be to give fighters a 'penetrating' effect on standard attacks, as stated before, they would have a good understanding of weaknesses in armour and vital locations to strike an opponent. All this would constitute is a percentage or numeric value that is removed from an opponents AR.

For example, lets say 'Defender' has an AR of 100, and 'Fighter' has a penetration value of 10%, leaving the 'Defender' with 90% of their normal AR to defend the attack.

Another example, using a set standard number, which optionally, could increase as the players level increases -

'Defender' has an AR of 100, and 'Fighter' has a standard penetration rating of 15, thus leaving the 'Defender' with an AR of 85 with wich to protect themselves.
Stances: An idea that has been thrown around a few times now in specific discussions. The idea is fairly simple and straightforward. The fighter has the option to choose which stance he would like to use, and may only modify his stance whilst he has 4, 5, or 6 stamina (in the lower levels, it would be at the standard refresh of the fighter). The primary stances for this ability may be something similar to 'Aggressive', 'Neutral', and 'Defensive', with each giving benefits an negatives to the Fighter as follows:

Aggressive: Fighter hits reasonably harder, misses a little more, is absorbed alot less, and recieves more damage when struck by the enemy.

Neutral: Standard stance - as combat currently exists for the Fighter.

Defensive: Fighter hits reasonably softer, recieves less damage when struck by the enemy and dodges more frequently.
The prior example is the bare bones/essentials of this skill, which is open to further detail/expansion as follows:

Balanced: would leave you as you are.

Accurate: would hit more often, but do less damage.

Agressive: would hit harder, but miss more and one would be prone to take more damage.

Cautious: would dodge more, but not hit as hard.

Defensive: would have you take less damage from opponent attacks, but also your attacks hit less frequently, and damage would be reduced.

I agree with this remark:

on 11/25/03 at 23:06:14, Stotic wrote:

NOTE: All numbers used in this post are purely for example purposes only, and have no bearing on what the figures should specifically be.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by CPG on 11/26/03 at 00:58:12

http://www.nightmist-online.co.uk/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.pl?board=Fighters;action=display;num=1062875414

It would be interesting for Fighters to have new armor. With stat modifications, it would increase playability, and roleplay values.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Sausage on 11/26/03 at 01:32:13

I believe Berserkers should have their stamina lowered to 5, giving Fighters the all important 6th stamina.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Gosu Exor on 11/26/03 at 11:07:18

1) I agree on the dual weapon idea sort of.But I do not think they should be able to use dual weapons that are long and would actually take two hands to hold.I.E Pikes,Halberds,etc.

Maybe they could use weapons like Blade of Honor+Cobalt or something that would not take two hands to use.

2)If a fighter uses a halberd or something of the sort that would take two hands to use, do not let them use shields.

3) I agree with what stotic said.If they choose to use dual weapons, make it like -3 to dex or something.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Banned on 11/26/03 at 12:32:30

on 11/26/03 at 11:07:18, Gosu Exor wrote:

3) I agree with what stotic said.If they choose to use dual weapons, make it like -3 to dex or something.

Seeing as that means that they can't wear a shield anymore it wouldnt make much sense to lower the dex, if anything they should get more dex seeing as they aren't carrieing that big ass shield anymore.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by alone on 11/26/03 at 12:39:03

on 11/26/03 at 12:32:30, Banned wrote:

Sorry to be off-topic, im sure this'll get deleted.

Losing the shield isn't that bad, concidering you'll be doing twice the damage.. Imagine doing 70 normally, enhaned with a Blade of Time.. Now you'd be doing 140*6= 840.. I think the loss of dex is worthy, but maybe only drop 2.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Banned on 11/26/03 at 12:43:18

on 11/26/03 at 12:39:03, alone wrote:

Not saying it isn't worth it, just saying that it makes no sense.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by alone on 11/26/03 at 12:55:48

on 11/26/03 at 12:43:18, Banned wrote:

Not saying it isn't worth it, just saying that it makes no sense.

Holding two big heavy weapons, that'd slow you down a lil bit. (Didn't mean to sound too sarcastic, sorry if it seems that way)

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Mephistroth on 11/26/03 at 12:57:25

Two swords = heavy and awkward to hold.. thats bound to drop your dext slightly. While it may not drop it by 2/3, who cares? Things have to be realistic yes, but it doesn't matter if somethings slightly over the top. You need to keep the game balanced.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Banned on 11/26/03 at 13:46:23

on 11/26/03 at 12:57:25, Mephistroth wrote:

/library katana

You know how light those things are...i like the idea of losing dex but it has to make a little bit of sense.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Mephistroth on 11/26/03 at 16:06:38

Then make it so the amount of dexterity you lose depends on the 'weight' of the weapon. That would mean that a new set of stats would be introduced for each weapon.

Weight - When creating a weapon you just add in if its light, medium or heavy. Light is 1 dext loss, medium 2 dext and heavy 3?

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Snowy on 11/27/03 at 15:53:46

yeah and also heavy makes u hold it with both hands maybe??

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Silex on 11/29/03 at 07:25:22

Fighters cannot fight, they dont need a 1 click ability, but they should be made to where other races do not completely rape them any time they leave town, you never see anyone seriously fighting on a fighter with any alts with them due to the fact that they're useless compared to other classes when it comes to fighting, re-name them or something...Warrior or something similar to that would make much more sense seeing as if people stay long enough or it is 1v1 they can hold a bit, but that isnt how fights go down in nm, so it isnt a fighter.

I'd say give them back the most stamina, zerkers round everything a tad too easily with spells anyway and can use 1-clicking for 6 stam attacks, they make fighters useless.

Rangers have armor just as high as fighters, that is wrong.

The best weapon fighters have their best weapon at lvl 20 and other classes have higher bases on the weapons then fighters, that is wrong. (not including blade of time or csotw because most people do not have them, while almost anyone can get a Dagger of spirits for thier thief, or ED for less than BoT even, and quite simply csotw is for any class and duh.)

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Lich on 11/30/03 at 12:58:15

1)make a weapon that can be equiped at lvl 25 that does more damage than a hally like say the rose blade give it just a few more damage points leave the rest alone.

2)Make armor that can be equiped that gives more protection than spiked a little more that you have to equip at a higher lvl and then make something that can be equiped at lvl 30 with a bit more those few things alone would bring the fighters more even. I play fighters mostly yes and my crits are fully equiped. But i am rounded by zerkers who are with in 5 lvls below me easily when they smite. but these few changed are really all that is needed to bring the class even with the rest.

Reasoning behind what I said Roseblade cant be equiped until 25 and has the same BD as a hally makes no sence. Spiked armor being the highest armor that a fighter can obtain puts the fighter at the same armor lvl as all other classes with abilities to do more damage. Fighters need weapons and armor to make up for the fact that they dont hit for as much.

Make these few easily coded changes and it evens them out without making them over powered or changing the basic concept of the crit.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by alone on 11/30/03 at 13:36:43

The Rose Blade is the best weapon for a Pally, that's why it's the same base as a Hally.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Lich on 11/30/03 at 14:29:42

Library info for Rose Blade:
Base damage: 25, Can be used by: fighters, paladins, berserkers, Description: This incredible sword is made entirely of intertwined roses. Its handle is a spiral of rose stems covered in thorns and leaves., Level needed to equip it: 25, Magical: No, Vamparic: No, Armor: 0, Strength modifier: 0, Intelligence modifier: 0, Dexterity modifier: 0, Constitution modifier: 0, Wisdom modifier: 0, Charisma modifier: 0, Poison chance: 0, Poison/30s damage: 0, Monster damage table: , Mana leech: .

Library info for Justice Blade:
Base damage: 24, Can be used by: paladins, Description: The justice blade is a member of the long sword family of blades wielded throughout the realms, and happens to be the finest made blade of its type. Former paladins who have long since withdrawn from their battle-ridden past painstakingly forge this weapon. Due to its fine edge it is incredibly dangerous, therefore its creators are sworn to spellbind this weapon from the use of anyone but their paladin brethren., Level needed to equip it: 23, Magical: No, Vamparic: No, Armor: 0, Strength modifier: 0, Intelligence modifier: 0, Dexterity modifier: 0, Constitution modifier: 0, Wisdom modifier: 0, Charisma modifier: 0, Poison chance: 0, Poison/30s damage: 0, Monster damage table: , Mana leech: .

So two lvls before the roseblade three lvls after the hally you can equip a weapon with one less BD and this still makes sence.

Also

Library info for Blade of Time:
Base damage: 29, Can be used by: fighters, paladins, berserkers, Description: You can tell right away that the blade is hand crafted from the finest of all metals. The blade can inflict large amounts of damage due to its very jagged structure. The handle is pure gold with shaped indentions to improve grip. There is a translucent orb at the base grasped by a claw., Level needed to equip it: 30, Magical: No, Vamparic: No, Armor: 0, Strength modifier: 0, Intelligence modifier: 0, Dexterity modifier: 0, Constitution modifier: 0, Wisdom modifier: 0, Charisma modifier: 0, Poison chance: 0, Poison/30s damage: 0, Monster damage table: , Mana leech: .

They can also use a blade of time so the rose blade is not the best weapon for the pally so what i said still makes more sence than what the game has. So again see my first post as to what i think needs to be done to improve a fighter. and leave out the pallys since they are not on this topic thank you.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by alone on 11/30/03 at 15:03:16

I know the base stats on most weapons, thank you.

What i said is still true. I personally see no point in changing the RB's stats. From level 25 - 30 it's the best weapon, and at 30 it's still the best weapon, for those who can't afford a BoT, which is quite alot of people.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Lich on 12/01/03 at 16:21:54

Ok explain how from lvl 25 to 30 it is the best weapon when i get a weapon with the same stats at lvl 20 the halberd. If you mean for paladins we are not discussing then we are discussing what it would take to make fighters equal with them.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Mephistroth on 12/01/03 at 16:41:56

Actually, you started talking about Paladins first, not Alone. Hes just replying to your posts.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Lich on 12/01/03 at 20:58:54

No actually i didn't i stated make the rose blades damage a bit more it makes no sence to have a weapon that you cant equip untill 5 lvls later be the same as the hally this would give a fighter a weapon they could equip that will do more damage. My reasoning for this is no mater what race you have as a pally raising the BD would make no difference for them because they will always hit for less than any decent half elf or dwarf fighter with decent stats.

but i never mentioned the pally because anyone who Roleplays and pays attention to the way most game systems are set up would understand that including this one. But right under my post ohhh there is his first saying dont touch the rose blade as it is the best weapon for a pally when in fact it is not. There is also one other weapon in the game for them i just cant remember what it is off the top of my head. So read who said what before you say someone said something they didnt. thank you

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Sausage on 12/02/03 at 00:06:14

First off, who cares what other games are set up like. Second of all, I see plenty of Fighters with RBs just because they are more rare. RB is primarily a Paladin weapon, and their best (within reason). But it's a blade so Fighters can use it too.

On to fighters...

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Mephistroth on 12/02/03 at 10:20:12

Paladins best weapon isn't a RB true, but its the weapon that is most used because its the best most people can afford. If you go and improve the damage of the RB to fit in with fighters, then all your doing is making paladins even more powerful. If you want an improved weapons for fighters, suggest a new one.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Bean on 12/03/03 at 01:30:24

/t FIGHTERS. not pallys.... stop talking about pallys...

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Mephistroth on 12/03/03 at 10:52:59

I am talking about fighters.. just im talking about paladins aswell :P

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Lich on 12/04/03 at 14:14:15

Hey meph I have an idea for a weapon but im not sure if to put it in here or not. What do you think.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Rappy_Ninja on 12/05/03 at 00:12:13

I think Fighters should do more then 6 out of 6 stam they get absorb/miss/blocked

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Mephistroth on 12/05/03 at 15:46:39

on 12/04/03 at 14:14:15, Lich wrote:

Hey meph I have an idea for a weapon but im not sure if to put it in here or not. What do you think.

lol well, it isn't really up to me.. but either here (under a new topic though) or the Alt. boss drop section. Depends where they'd get it from I guess.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by alicia on 12/07/03 at 03:16:04

)- keep zerkers/fighters at 6 stam but either:

reduce zerkers stam regen to 3, or
increace fighters stam regen to 5

)- allow fighters to protect weaker crits in party

)- give fighters aggressive/defensive stances, as described above

)- more variety of weapons, -dex +base and +dex -base over hally 25+ weapons, as both purchase and boss drop

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Rappy_Ninja on 12/07/03 at 16:54:16

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I agree

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Blade_From_Hell on 12/15/03 at 00:51:18

with hallys and bows and such you shouldn't be able to use sheilds to even it out some and bring up the damage of those weapons and some with -dex

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by dec on 12/24/03 at 00:33:11

That suggestion came up before but then later proved wrong when someone came up with a photo of some guy (in real life) weilding a hally with a shield.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Ringleader on 12/27/03 at 09:55:42

I think giving them skills that help party members instead of simply making them hit differently and be hit differenly would be nice.

Such as my idea for them being able to get spells off members of their party like greater pact so that their members can attack again.

Possibly give them an ability that makes them share 1/2 damage delt to a party member cause they're taking some of the blow for that party member.

Give them some nifty stuff instead of making them just another class that hacks at nuts because they shouldn't have a 1 click and w/o that they will not be used to PK too soon unless they enhance the party in other ways than dealing damage...thats in my opinion of course.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Rappy_Ninja on 12/27/03 at 15:36:37

think it was suggested before but have some kind of stances

like defenseive stance (would lower chance for other peeps to hit you

offenseive stance (would raise damage you do by 2-3 points

etc

of course they could only have one on at a time

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Rosemary on 01/09/04 at 12:42:35

Suggestions on extra stuff for a fighter:

Guard/protect- will take most of or all of damage dealt to a player

(was suggested because fighters are usually the 1st person in any fights that would be to attack and would therefor be in front of others protecting them)

War Cry- Increases the str of party members by say 2

(A war cry was suggested because like ringleader said, there should be some party advantages to a fighter)

Call for retreat- increases party dex by say 5 and lowers str by 5 so you have more chance to get away from an ambush of pks

(This was suggested mainly because of the same reason of a War Cry)

stances- most have already been said so i wont go into it

also, i think before someone said this, a fighters stamina should increase maybe to 7 and have 5 recover. The hp is a big problem to my fighters too. I think that hp should be increased by 2 or 3, just enough to allow them to have good hp for defensive reasons and will hopefully make it harder for zerkers to kill.

Another thing which was brought up was the double weapons. I'm not totaly with it, but it would be nice to have a bit more damage in fighting other opponents especially zerkers.

If a new weapon was introduced why not just make a new one that could only be equiped by a fighter at lvl 25, and example of this is:

Warrior's blade
Base damage: 27, Can be used by: fighters, Description: This incredible sword is made of the finest steel man can buy and was enchanted by the gods to give strength and wisdom to those who bore it., Level needed to equip it: 25, Magical: yes, Vamparic: 0.2, Armor: 0, Strength modifier: +2, Intelligence modifier: 0, Dexterity modifier: -2, Constitution modifier: +1, Wisdom modifier: +1, Charisma modifier: 0, Poison chance: 0, Poison/30s damage: 0, Monster damage table: , Mana leech: .

that way you have a weapon only a fighter may use to his own advantage.

and same with armour, make a new set that can only be equiped by fighters for example:
Large Steel Chest
Large Steel Helmet
Large Steel Shield

NOTE: all numbers and names were used as an example

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by dec on 01/19/04 at 16:48:28

i dnt think anything should add 5 dex its too much also 2 str im not sure about. What lvl would u be able to use these at?

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Epic on 01/26/04 at 03:12:05

I have a fairly good fighter that cant do nuts against any other class unless its a zerker, 80% of his attacking hits get absorbed hitting for 30 with my blade of time IF im lucky, someone said fighting is their skill and they should know where the weaker spots on the body is so they can slip their weapons between someones armor hitting much harder then 30 on the average...

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Tha Girl on 02/02/04 at 18:02:51

I guess fighters and zerkers are the best in fighting, cause they hit with great damage.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Deval on 02/04/04 at 00:11:18

Fighters hit with great damage? Well that's news to me.

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Rosemary on 02/04/04 at 07:41:06

dec, did u not read down the bottom how it said names and numbers were only examples?

Title: Re: Fighter Class Discussion
Post by Everlast on 02/14/04 at 16:44:36

Fighters can duel, that is about all (1v1 only at that), but there is no fun in dueling something that all you do is hold down your '/a XXX' macro

Fighters should have the most armor in game by a good bit. I do not mean more armor than mages and druids when they've got their spells on, but fighters should have a lot of armor. Rangers get basically the same armor as fighters, that doesn't seem right to me.

Fighters ought to deal a decent ammount of damage. They hit with their purses rather than their halberds.

I think a fighter would have some skill at fighting, ability to counter physical attacks and evade them more often than most other classes. Maybe instead of giving them more armor we should give them higher evade% and give them counter on physical attacks. Not all physical attacks ofcourse, just those involving open close in physical attacks, as in not covert assassinates or bow attacks.
Allowing them to counter some monsters attacks without having to use stam would also be an idea.