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(Message started by: Eternyte on 07/10/03 at 18:08:26)
Title: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Eternyte on 07/10/03 at 18:08:26
Ok, firstly I have been away in Greece for a while, so I have missed out on things happening, and have therefore been unable to comment. I shall now take some time, and have my thoughts made known.

As already posted in numerous places on the forums, Devastate is supposed to be the most deadly spell within the realms of Nightmist...Agreed?

Being one for the few people who have actually used Devastate, I can honestly say that I didnt think it was overpowered. Granted whilst you were able to time stamina it was a lethal wepon. However, this has been removed from the game.

At present, since the new modification of Devastate mages are left in some what of a very deep trough of abilities. Previously devastating a bunny would cause approx 140 damage, now it causes a mere 105 or so. Beam does about 96. So effectively the most powerful spell ever does only 10 more damage than a poxy ray of light? Thats obscene!!

It costs 25 mp, also thus making it the most inefficient spell currently on the game.

When I heard and saw for myself the modification of the "Master of Magic" most destructive spell, I thought just how wrong things could go.

High level mages are the most powerful beings, yet they hardly seem to be more than illusionists making people invisible. Such dark times this is for the magical generations.

There is no way on earth such a powerful spell can be so feeble. Also with all the resists, fizzling, partial resist etc. mages are fast falling into the depths of oblivion.

Mages have NO spell that can modify their spell damage, unlike every other class being affected by Enhance and Righteous Fury etc. Even the amulets that give +1 intelligence dont affect damage by anything significant.

On another point, why the hell should a Cleric be able to heal for 100+ everytime, they even have more advanced spells. They can hurt entire squares, hell they can even make their stamina return to maximum. For example, a level 30 mage only gets 4 stamina back with Haste. However, a level 30 cleric gets 5 stamina back with both Blessed Haste (castable on whole parties), or the much cheaper Holy Might.

Why cant you see that your making Mages so pathetic, that no one is going to want to use one. Even their mana gets ripped from them. Clerics heal for 100+, with the long time widely available Divine Restoration for about 8mp. Devastate about 50-80 varying on wisdom, with added resists, fizzles and partial resists, not yet even widely available and costs a stupid 25mp. It's ludicris!!
Even Druids out spell mages, their armor spells are just awesome. Also stormwrath costs very low mp and does 10 less damage than beam.

Mages even get rounded by almost every class due to their very low hp, unless your able to get or willing to buy Aura of Protection, plus 2mil+ gold of extra equipment.

Most players remember old_fart/Milagros really dominating. This is due to the simple facts:
1. John is a good player, and can work mages well.
2. Whem stamina timing was in John was good at this, thus managing to inflict about 7-9 devastates in quick succession.
3. In large events such as Triplex, he uses Nightshade Elixirs, Vampire Potions and Powerstones. So anyone could do very well with full mp/hp heals, and stamina regains, and the vamparic ability the vampire potion gives for the short period of time. He also used these when dueling the 3 level 30 rangers posted about on forums somewhere.

Anyone using Vampire Potions or Nightshade Elixirs would do some serious damage to people dueling them.

Also the only people that seem to be posting that Devastate be tweaked, or the people with no hope at all of getting it, no hope at all of buying it, and are incapable of training a mage to level 30 because they are very difficult to train.

Players need to stop thinking about personal power, and only posting ideas on their mains alts. Then when a good idea, thats powerful comes up for a class other than their mains, they say how overpowered it would become.

I have posted this numerous times, but no one seems to listen, and it's ruining the game with people only listening to themselves.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Cupcake on 07/10/03 at 18:14:01
Ill drink to that....
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Harath on 07/10/03 at 19:07:31
I agree with what your saying there, but I have one comment to make:


on 07/10/03 at 18:08:26, Eternyte wrote:
people only listening to themselves.


Not meaning to sound rude, but you seem to fit right into that category.

/who Eternyte
---------------- Eternyte ----------------
Name: ÂnD®£w
Class: Male Gnome Archmaster Mage
Clan: The Resistance Leader (HELP!!)

Arch Mage, looks to me like your only thinking of yourself. I know you might not be, but you have to admit that it makes your opinion look biased.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Bobbity on 07/10/03 at 19:11:27
So what? He likes mages..  I agree, Devastate utterly sucks now...
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Harath on 07/10/03 at 19:16:49
I'm just saying that he shouldn't make statements like that, especially when he fits right into it. But I do agree with him, devastate needs improving somehow.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Bobbity on 07/10/03 at 19:20:03
It needs changing back to it's original power.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Harath on 07/10/03 at 19:23:52
No it does not. That would be way over powered, imagine every mage with devestate doing that much, nothing would stand a chance.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Bobbity on 07/10/03 at 19:27:43
That's what it should be like. It's not overpowered, it's sensible.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Ender on 07/10/03 at 19:40:35
Sensible? Its stupid. 5 Arch Mages with Devastate....take out parties of 15.  Its not JUST devastate that needs improving its mages too! I think they should get more HP personally. And Devastate + 20 dmg /shrug.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Bobbity on 07/10/03 at 19:44:18
And tell me Rich, who would, and how long would it take to get 5 arch mages with Devastate?
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Ender on 07/10/03 at 19:53:22
Not that long.


Example.
Look how long it took for Spider Gauntlets to be cheap.
No-one could kill it at first, as they didn't have the power, look at the people today. It may be a mage only area, so what? There are quite a few mages who would go there to get it, huge parties would, Over and Over, people will buy them, but so many will come in-to game they will become cheap. Every Mage will have Devastate soon. Like AOP and SG's. AOP - Wanted Badly back then. Now you can pick it up for 200k.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by dognapot on 07/10/03 at 20:01:39
andy has a mage. true, and he has atleast 1 high level crit of every class.

everyone just shut up. andy is right.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Ender on 07/10/03 at 20:05:13
Or you shut up? And put some constructive comments in to this post.


Andy isn't always right, just cause both Andy and Ste Have a high level of every class.


Other people have a right to express their opinions. You cannot come in to a post and say Shut Up..
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Sanctuared on 07/10/03 at 20:07:17
Mages are entirely reliant on spells for the most part, everyone will agree with that right?  Then tell me why clerics, which can also heal for 100+, have more spells then mages by like double.  It's absolutly unrealistic and quite frankly, stupid!  Mages should keep their hp and mp as it is (it works out nicely), but receive more spells, and something that puts them over the top like devastate.  Mages are hardest to train, and lowest hp... Doesn't that mean they should have some pretty nice spells?  They don't...  I would take a druid or cleric over a mage any day.  But back to the subject, I think devastate should have lowered mp cost, and raise damage or decrease resist rate to 0.


*Edit: And just to tell you, I don't have any mages...
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Despair on 07/10/03 at 20:20:47
Good post and I agree with just about everything you said . . .

But do have one query, didn't Milagros even with his not amazing hp in a duel vs 3 Arch Rangers being used by an experienced player manage to take 2 of them down . . .

And afterwards asked for a re duel with the confidence to offer a million gold pot to prove that he wouldn't die again . . .

Now I know since the damage has been reduced slightly . . . but should any crit be able to take down 3 other crits of the same level?
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Ender on 07/10/03 at 20:28:01
I was the player Milagros dueled. He took out one of my crits.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Cupcake on 07/10/03 at 20:39:51
hp on mages is fine, it does not need to be raised. Aura balances out the low hp, as if it was raised and had aura, they truly would be Gods. Numerous people can tell you that Milagros was far from invincible even before devastate was altered. However devastate gave mages a fighting chance against classes they would normally stand no chance of defeating before, such as thieves, rangers, and zerkers.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by PureMourning on 07/10/03 at 20:45:25
Since this spell will be added into the game for everyone, I think it's fine that it is lowered, BUT, the spell's power was lowered TOO much.

I think it makes sense that the spell's power was lowered for the fact it'll be in game, but I think this whole problem would be fixed if you just increased it back up slightly. Simple?
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Zephie on 07/10/03 at 21:49:01
I agree with the damage being changed, but the mp cost should be reduced slightly.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Kazuya on 07/10/03 at 23:34:43
nah i think it was lowered to much..about that 5 mages runing around wiht devestate pking crap have u ever encounder a party of 5 arch zerkers?..wiht spells they can do WAYYY more damage than 5 mages and they dont even use mana..so just cuz the spell his for 80-90''s more depending on wiz shouldnt be lowerd cuz i can berserk for 80-140 wiht my zerker and round "ANY" crit with a good round..whats my point? that if people keep whining about spells and crits being to powerfull then everyhitng will be lowered making this game usless..i suggest leave it how it was before
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Alicia on 07/10/03 at 23:53:55
Not been a big mage user myself (my best mage is l22 and only really used for invis) can someone tell me what the 2mill worth of eq that with aop can give you so much armour is?
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Pile on 07/10/03 at 23:57:47
AoP simply gives 2.5 X your armour; the more base armour you have the more the spell gives. So on my mage with 4CRs, SGs and Boots of Time I have a base of 56 and 140 when spelled. It basically means mages are crap unless you have lots of armour items.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Despair on 07/11/03 at 00:07:06
2 Barons Bracelets 1.6 million (rough estimate)
Amulet of the lich 300k
SG's 250k
Boots of Time 275k
4 Crystal Rings 800k

= 3225k

The above items correct me if Im wrong would give a mage with AOP 150 armor
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by PureMourning on 07/11/03 at 00:31:24
Over 3 million for all that, just to get the AOP to an effective stage. I agree with Pile.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by -Gaddy- on 07/11/03 at 00:59:44
My problem with mages getting devestate and having it deal a frikin ton of damage is that no other classes can be pretty much sure they'll round a person...milagros could round just about anything, zerkers are the only thing that stand a chance of living, i think zerkers hit too hard also for the same reason, if a fighter cannot round a person, thief doesnt usually 1 click people w/o enhance, rangers dont kill very often w/o enhance, pallys..duh..., but why should a mage be able to auto round a person? if you run 3 arch mages with devestate they could take out a party of atleast 10 pretty easily simply by using 1 to invis the others after the first 2 have rounded the 1 or 2 clerics in the party...i think if you make devestate availble to more than 1 player (it was fine with just 1 cause a party could kill him even with his aop...if they got lucky.../shrug)...i mean...they make themselves pretty much dominate any fighting class with using aop...so why make them hit for 100s on players also...so they can 3 click almost anything...i mean..click click click, any cleric is dead, invis...with a stam to move away? thats bull nuts.  

I think a solution that might help them...give clerics or something (not mages plz) the ablility to enhance the magic...like..a mental enhance...enlightenment?  Something that would be pretty much an enhance for mages, which is what makes zerkers, theives, and rangers so deadly.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by dognapot on 07/11/03 at 03:02:15
:)
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Odin on 07/11/03 at 04:01:03
So white magic enhancing black magic? I don't think so. Mages shouldn't be reliant on others to enhance their power... blah, i'm not going to bother, Andy has argued every possible angle several times.

Lets scrap mages all together and give invisibility to druids. This way people won't waste time and money leveling a mage.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Deval on 07/11/03 at 04:18:12

Druids already have an invis, I say scrap mages and give me, just me invisibility
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Creed on 07/11/03 at 04:34:43
Well you know what they say.. What one lacks in his skill, he makes up for with his alts.. So, Hooray for alts! :-/
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Odin on 07/11/03 at 04:49:20

on 07/11/03 at 04:18:12, Deval wrote:
Druids already have an invis, I say scrap mages and give me, just me invisibility


Yes but mages have an edge over Druids, they can cast there invis on others. So give that power to Druids, and we are fine.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Deval on 07/11/03 at 05:04:49
No! Shut up right there! Who are you stupid newb!? I've never seen you before! Leave me alone! I bet you don't even have an archmaster mage you stupid newb! SHUT UP! SHUT UP! SHUT UUUUUUPPPPPP!...
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Lady_Maha on 07/11/03 at 05:51:11
rofl

Looks like you are feeling better today, Deval. You're back to being your old self.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by -Gaddy- on 07/11/03 at 15:59:08
Mages are a lot like fighters, in that they are p.o.s w/o a ton of special equip on them basically...but mages still get alright armor w/o some of that stuff...baron's bracelets should be scarpped cause they only give 1 armor...thats like..2*2.5= 5 armor with aop...there'd be no real reason to say 1.6 mill to add those unless you want to max out your mage..
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by -Gaddy- on 07/11/03 at 16:00:12
o, i like my mage..it is pretty easy to kill people with...just avoiding taking it ALONE into a party of 3 archies and expecting to win helps me out.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Bobbity on 07/11/03 at 16:28:13

on 07/11/03 at 15:59:08, -Gaddy- wrote:
Mages are a lot like fighters


Sorry to disappoint you, but they're nothing like fighters...
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Eternyte on 07/11/03 at 17:20:33

on 07/10/03 at 19:07:31, Harath wrote:
I agree with what your saying there, but I have one comment to make:

"on Jul 10th, 2003, 6:08pm, Eternyte wrote:"
"people only listening to themselves."

Not meaning to sound rude, but you seem to fit right into that category.

/who Eternyte
---------------- Eternyte ----------------
Name: ÂnD®£w
Class: Male Gnome Archmaster Mage
Clan: The Resistance Leader (HELP!!)

Arch Mage, looks to me like your only thinking of yourself. I know you might not be, but you have to admit that it makes your opinion look biased.


http://www.nightmist-online.co.uk/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.pl?board=Berserkers;action=display;num=1049116606;start=0#0

http://www.nightmist-online.co.uk/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.pl?board=Clerics;action=display;num=1043518519

http://www.nightmist-online.co.uk/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.pl?board=Fighters;action=display;num=1043519292

http://www.nightmist-online.co.uk/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.pl?board=Rangers;action=display;num=1043520165;start=0#0

http://www.nightmist-online.co.uk/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.pl?board=Thieves;action=display;num=1043520412;start=0#0

I also post, and add to others ideas on every class. So dont call me biased towards mages. Also as people have said I have access to a level 30 in every class, apart from druid to which I have a level 29.

Answers:

on 07/10/03 at 19:40:35, Ender wrote:
Sensible? Its stupid. 5 Arch Mages with Devastate....take out parties of 15


Devastate will not be that easy, and if there are 5 mages running about with Devastate, I am very sure it wont be within 12 months.


on 07/10/03 at 20:05:13, Ender wrote:
Andy isn't always right


Ofcourse I'm not always right, I just voice my personal opinions after testing every class, and viewing their flaws. So my comments are objective and constructive.


on 07/10/03 at 20:20:47, Despair wrote:
But do have one query, didn't Milagros even with his not amazing hp in a duel vs 3 Arch Rangers being used by an experienced player manage to take 2 of them down


As I have already stated, John was using Powerstones (full mana heal), and Nightshade Elixirs (full hp, mp and stamina regain). Anyone would be able to do that.


on 07/11/03 at 00:59:44, -Gaddy- wrote:
if you run 3 arch mages with devestate they could take out a party of atleast 10 pretty easily simply by using 1 to invis the others after the first 2 have rounded the 1 or 2 clerics in the party


Firstly after the first death or a party member, the mages would be targeted instantly by any half decent player. Also the exact same task could be performed by 1 mage, and 2 thieves, should they be changed? I think not.


on 07/11/03 at 00:59:44, -Gaddy- wrote:
i think zerkers hit too hard also for the same reason, if a fighter cannot round a person, thief doesnt usually 1 click people w/o enhance, rangers dont kill very often w/o enhance


A zerk without enhance hit very few and far between. How often do you see a zerk around without the aid of a cleric somewhere about?

Also the reason a zerk hits harder than a fighter is becase the fighter is able to wear armor. Thus being able to sustain in a fight for longer. A zerk usually gets hit for about 80 average. They also rarely dodge attacks.


on 07/11/03 at 00:59:44, -Gaddy- wrote:
so why make them hit for 100s on players also...so they can 3 click almost anything...i mean..click click click, any cleric is dead, invis...with a stam to move away? thats bull nuts.


No one wants them to hit for 100's. Well unless the crit being attacked has about 10 wisdom. Devastate would be fine if it was 80 damage, with the current fizzle rate, Or 70 damage with a no fizzle formula.
Why not make Devastate like the Necromancer spell 'Death Wave' pre-reset. Maybe let the spell do 250 damage, but with a 60% fizzle rate. However with 60% fizzle rate the mana should be low in comparison. Or there would be a large waste.



I have suggested in numerous posts about various spells and abilities mages could have in substitute for Devastate. Like a Rapid Beam, Slow, Mana Leech, Vamparic Spells. Everyone wants to be able to round something. Mages have no option of this unless the crit is of low level and/or poor wisdom.

Everyone seems to post in defence. "But what happens when you see 100000 mages running about, Devastate is too powerful".....ANY, and I mean ANY large party of the same crit can wipe out anyone.

For instance, Wrath of Gods, 2 stamina usage, 20 damage average. Thats 40 damage to everyone on a square per round.
12 lvl 24+ could wipe out as many level 30 zerks as you can put on a square with them.

So you see the only reason your giving for not making Devastate as it should be, is the fact that a party of mages with devastate would be unstoppable, but then EVERY class falls into that category, so your claims are unfounded.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Ender on 07/11/03 at 17:27:06
John didn't kill two of me, one.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Harath on 07/11/03 at 17:30:26
Your main class just HAPPENS to be a mage, all your posts just HAPPEN to be about the crit you like the most at the time. I think you just want your main class to be over powered. I agree with what you've said, but I just want to make this clear.

btw, I never called you biased. I said it makes you LOOK biased.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Eternyte on 07/11/03 at 18:36:03

on 07/11/03 at 17:27:06, Ender wrote:
John didn't kill two of me, one.

He said it himself, even with Elixirs and Powerstones, Rich said that John only killed 1 crit.
I'm glad you agree that Devastate obviously isnt that strong, seeing as he only killed 1 alt, and that Devastate wouldnt overpower mages. I agree.


on 07/11/03 at 17:30:26, Harath wrote:
I think you just want your main class to be over powered.



on 07/11/03 at 17:30:26, Harath wrote:
btw, I never called you biased. I said it makes you LOOK biased.


Thanks for making yourself totally clear.

Either way. I want to be able to use all the classes as my mains, not just 1. Although I do admit, that I would like to see mages become more of an individual class, which could take on parties with the correct strategy, and survive on their own, training without 100 alts of mana, and without running back to shops every 5 minutes. In that case you may call me biased.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by -Gaddy- on 07/11/03 at 18:49:22
OMFG how the hell can you say that mages with a devestate hitting for 90s on avg. doesnt make them over powered? they make up for hp by not allowing people to hit them for over around 30s, they can invis themselves and anyone else with them, they can beam for 65+ easily on anything, and they aren't good enough if devestate just does 75-80ish? wtf, eternyte is right that hitting for 80s with a fairly high fizzle rate would be alright.  Giving them 70s with no fizzle is rediculus.  I didnt say zerkers shouldnt be able to hit as hard as they do...im not a moron i realize they hit harder because of no armor and no dexies and such.

I said mages are like fighters because they need an ton of equip to be really good or stand a good chance against others (even though i still say a mage should be able to do fine in a free fight since they could hit 4 times, invis, or 3 times invis and move) and in saying that how am i wrong Bobbity?  
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Ender on 07/11/03 at 18:55:32

on 07/11/03 at 18:36:03, Eternyte wrote:
He said it himself, even with Elixirs and Powerstones, Rich said that John only killed 1 crit.
I'm glad you agree that Devastate obviously isnt that strong, seeing as he only killed 1 alt, and that Devastate wouldnt overpower mages. I agree.

Thanks for making yourself totally clear.

Either way. I want to be able to use all the classes as my mains, not just 1. Although I do admit, that I would like to see mages become more of an individual class, which could take on parties with the correct strategy, and survive on their own, training without 100 alts of mana, and without running back to shops every 5 minutes. In that case you may call me biased.



Andrew, the point is.

Three Rangers.


30 x5 = 150
30 x5 = 150
30 x5 = 150

Thats 450 damage, and even with a few misses, still easily done. And i can do that in under 1 second, macros. Even Clicking its possible, so wether or not he had powerstones and elixirs it doesn't matter. Cause he would die.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Harath on 07/11/03 at 19:41:00
Eternyte, I know your not stupid but please.. I was talking about my first post where I said 'It makes you LOOK biased' In my second post, I did however call you biased because to me the evidence points to you being biased. Pretty simple really.

Devestate needs improving, but it doesn't need to be made the same as before, EITHER lower the mana cost and fizzle/resist rate, or increase the damage.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Sera on 07/11/03 at 20:52:30
I have just one point to make here. Y'all are whining about mages being able to do 90+ damage. What about Zerkers hitting for 120s? *and thats not a smite hit either!* And Rangers as well? Oh, and what about thieves assassing for over 200? Granted some of these hits are with spells...but mages have no spells that make them hit any harder. I don't see the difference between a party of mages hitting for 90+ and a party of Zerkers and/or Rangers and/or thieves hitting for 100+ - 200+.  
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Sanctuared on 07/11/03 at 21:57:14
Sera has a great point to be brought up.  Zerkers can hit 170+ on berserk each hit with spells.  5* 170= 850 dmg.  They will probably miss 2 or 3, but that can still round any arch ingame.  Mages can only hit for 60-70 right now tops and people complain they are too powerful?  I think the resist rate for devastate should be lowered, and damage upped to 90+ against crits with 18 wis.  Think about it, it is logical for 25 mana.  Normal arch mages don't have over 350 mp (I dont think), thats only 14 spells with devastate.  Again, I don't own a single mage so this is not to improve my main crit or anything.  Seriously though, is what I suggested overpowered to you?  And consider all direcions and look at the other classes...
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Alicia on 07/12/03 at 00:37:53
Unless someone would say otherwise, arnt power stones rare one-time-drop items that wont appear again once all in game are used?
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by -Gaddy- on 07/12/03 at 00:55:38

on 07/11/03 at 20:52:30, Sera wrote:
I have just one point to make here. Y'all are whining about mages being able to do 90+ damage. What about Zerkers hitting for 120s? *and thats not a smite hit either!* And Rangers as well? Oh, and what about thieves assassing for over 200? Granted some of these hits are with spells...but mages have no spells that make them hit any harder. I don't see the difference between a party of mages hitting for 90+ and a party of Zerkers and/or Rangers and/or thieves hitting for 100+ - 200+.  


Ya, notice how often zerkers miss? how they cannot have any armor? no dex increasing items to make them dodge attacks better....and to do these really hard attacks they must be spelled up..which means they must have a cleric with and that the cleric will probably get killed unless they sit with the DR macro down...which leaves them having to switch boxes to attack with the zerker...and how they cannot make themselves invisible and suprise people?  Same thing with rangers only they can have armor, i still think zerkers, thieves, and rangers have a huge advantage when it comes to pking over every other class...o and thieves hitting for over 200..thats with all 5 of thier stam..mage would be doing over 400 with all of its stam...the fizzle rate would need to be really high if they were going to let them hit that hard.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Bean on 07/12/03 at 00:59:22
Mages get fizzles, resists, partial resists. They miss quite a bit too, as almost every character nowadays has max wis.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by -Gaddy- on 07/12/03 at 01:06:30
not really...a lot of people stopped having max wis since people stopped using mages to kill people so much...i dunno..i guess all but 1 of my crits does now that i think about it...but that one is my precious arch thiefy with 12 wis...still 1 off 5 stat though  :P  Other crits get the same thing in armor blocks, partial armor blocks, misses and such...thats why i compare mages to fighters, they really are a lot alike if you think about it...cost a ton to get them really good, they miss/get blocked quite a bit (w/o dexies on a fighter is a bish to pk sometimes)...they both have to click over and over to attack (and shouldnt have a 1 click..not all classes are suppose to)....they're just more alike than anything else i can compare a mage to really...i mean..completely diff. in concept of magic to physical attacks..but the way they are is just kind of similar in my view.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Bean on 07/12/03 at 01:17:15
This whole problem stems from that fact that any one class can one click at all... or even ROUND someone.

Our characters were not really built for pk, they were built for fighting monsters. and when you turn the chars power loose on another char the effects are.... Deadly.

I dont really know what i was trying to say with that above statement... My brain just grinded to a halt.... so figure it out for me  :-/
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by -Gaddy- on 07/12/03 at 01:31:07
what your brain grinded out is a pretty good point in my opinion...

edit- that is if you're saying that really you dont think people should be able to round other crits.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Bean on 07/12/03 at 01:43:30
Well you shouldnt really, But the whole problem comes from the fact that monsters have LOTS more hp than players. Therefore players gotta hit harder. Then everyone starts pking, and the damage is so high that you can be rounded and one clicked. then everyone complains the damage is too high, then the characters get lowered in attack power, and monsters start to Pwn them. So they complain again that the monsters own them, and that damage should be increased.


Kinda a neverending cycle  :-/
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Despair on 07/12/03 at 03:05:55

on 07/12/03 at 01:43:30, Bean wrote:
So they complain again that the monsters own them


Funny that . . . I've never ever heard even one complaint from a player that monsters own them  :-/

(appart from the Giant Cham but hes just mean full stop)
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Bean on 07/12/03 at 07:15:16
Its happened. not in those exact words. It was more along the lines of 'Our characters can possibly be strong enough to fight those monsters'

Or it hasnt, I dunno. I do have a horrible memory
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Eternyte on 07/12/03 at 10:04:34

on 07/12/03 at 01:06:30, -Gaddy- wrote:
a lot of people stopped having max wis since people stopped using mages to kill people so much...i dunno

May I ask what reason you think this is because of? In fact I'll tell you. It's because mages are NOT powerful. Why use a mage when you cant even increase your damage.

Druids stormwrath fizzles and gets resisted less than Beam does. Also you all seem to be forgetting the immence cost, and the difficulty of training a mage to level 30 in the first place to even be able to scribe the spell.

Mages take so long to train with all very high costs of their spells. The fact you need to keep getting mana for them which they use rapidly. Then by some feat you actually manage to level your mage to level 30, you then have to maintain the crit with copious amount of mana crystals and healing potions. They are by far the most difficult and expensive characters to train.

They should reap a massive rewards which is why Devastate should be returned as it was, then made available as a low % drop rate.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Harath on 07/12/03 at 10:21:18
And in a few months everyone has devestate, and then mages will be owning everything. Fair? I think not. Low drop rates solve nothing, people will go every day for months to get this, so in a short amount of time pretty much everyone will have it.

It should be made better, but not as good as it was before. Otherwise mages would be over powered.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Eternyte on 07/12/03 at 11:02:05

on 07/12/03 at 10:04:34, Eternyte wrote:
Mages take so long to train with all very high costs of their spells. The fact you need to keep getting mana for them which they use rapidly. Then by some feat you actually manage to level your mage to level 30, you then have to maintain the crit with copious amount of mana crystals and healing potions. They are by far the most difficult and expensive characters to train.

They should reap a massive rewards which is why Devastate should be returned as it was, then made available as a low % drop rate.



Also Amulets of the Lich, Blades of Time, Emerald Dagger and Spyglasses. They have all been out for a long time. However I guess Spyglass would be the best example. The boss is fairly hard to kill, unless you have a large party. The drop rate is quite low. The boss has been open for about 8 mths+ (correct if wrong), and there are only about 4 spyglasses in the game.

I'm sure the area Pandilex has constructed for Devasate will be nothing short of impossible, with a stupidly low drop rate, even lower than that of the spyglass. Even the Resthave thief guild has been open for a considerable period of time, with parties going everyday. Yet there are only 3-6 ED's in the game.
However, as already stated the drop will obviously be very VERY low. So once again your arguments are unfounded.

As I have stated before, your saying it will overpower mages on a mass scale i.e. parties of mages with devastate. Although, as said once again ealier this goes the same with EVERY class. In enough quantity as your stating, EVERYTHING is overpowered. Yet no one is saying about any other class being totally overpowered. As mages wouldnt be.

May I suggest a period where Devastate is returned back to normal damage etc. then have the boss area released onto the game. Then in say 3 mths if there are stupid amounts of devastate which displays mages being overpowered then it be changed slightly. If as I expect there would be no sign of overpowerment, it is therefore left as it is!

This will probably be my last post on this topic, because there is nothing more to say. If however someone actually posts a valid point which can be debated I will then reply.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Bill on 07/12/03 at 11:24:38
And also if the boss is in a mage only area, then it would be even harder, with mages needing a mixture of mana and healing potions, having to run back every few minutes, and if the boss requires a one-a-day key (like atrium monarch) then it would be almost impossible, players would have to take many lower alts with mana, and/or build up a decent number of keys for mana/pot trips.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Outsider on 07/12/03 at 11:27:25

on 07/12/03 at 11:24:38, Bill wrote:
And also if the boss is in a mage only area, then it would be even harder, with mages needing a mixture of mana and healing potions, having to run back every few minutes, and if the boss requires a one-a-day key (like atrium monarch) then it would be almost impossible, players would have to take many lower alts with mana, and/or build up a decent number of keys for mana/pot trips.


Or just log off, buy some from the site and log back on  ::)
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Bill on 07/12/03 at 11:33:23
Bah, where's the strategy in that?  :P

Maybe the Boss square would take to to local or something when you logged off there?
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Outsider on 07/12/03 at 11:36:01
So u have to move 3 squares before u log of, lol, maybe it will encourage JLH too fix the bug.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Bill on 07/12/03 at 11:39:11
But if you moved 3 squares and logged off and on to get mana, you'd still need a new key.  :P
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Outsider on 07/12/03 at 11:41:27
Depends on how far the door is located, and if thats the case u get one alt, put it in front of the door and it will just throw mana in.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Bill on 07/12/03 at 11:45:35
You have to outsmart any attempt to make the boss hard don't you.  :P

I don't think the area leading up to it will be so easy that an alt (or a few) can easily run back and forth through it with mana.  :-/  (Kinda like Sentant)
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Outsider on 07/12/03 at 11:52:33
The alt will get his mana of the site, seeing as the one(s) fighting can not log.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Bill on 07/12/03 at 11:54:36
But what if JLH stops people from being able to do that?  :-/
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Outsider on 07/12/03 at 11:55:58
He hasnt done so far, so why would he do it now (fixing the bug i mean). C'mon JLH ur on, here's ur chance to respond  :P
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Harath on 07/12/03 at 12:23:10
Eternyte, your argument is also pretty useless.

Blades of Time - Quite a few in game actually, and the price has dropped a hell of a lot.

Emerald Dagger - Most people don't have the required amount of thieves to get one, and don't really want to pay 2 mill for it.

Spyglass - Pretty useless item, only a few in game because nobody can be bothered to spend the required effort to get one.

Amulet of the Lich - Again, a pretty useless item. Amulet of Hermes or Amulet of Lag Protection are far better, and pretty much everyone would prefer them.

The point were trying to make with mages being unstoppable, is that for berserkers to be good, they have to have a support class. Mages won't. Not only that, a smaller amount of them would be able to slaughter pretty much anything. It's just stupid giving every mage the ability to have the most powerful spell in game, and be able to own everything. Milagros said himself that he could pretty much own everything with devastate, so why should it be put back to its old power when EVERYONE can get it?
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Bean on 07/12/03 at 17:35:48
Why not just have an all mage mosh, and the winner each time gets devestate.

Run the mosh like once a month, and mages that already have devestate cant join.

There.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by -Gaddy- on 07/12/03 at 17:51:24
I'd like to make a note that Malok isnt really that hard, Devout has gotten 3 drops..once one day then the day after..both dropped...also, the area (whole area) could be made log to local...due to even if they made it so that you logged to local in the boss area and people just moved away a little logged and bought pots then they'd need a new key? well take low lvls...log them off outside..then throw mana in the right direction...it isnt that hard..but note that people might be killed by the boss while they did that because to get on site and buy 14 pots would take a little time...it'd make it pretty hard to do...i dont think the log off and buy is a bug...it shouldnt be taken out..and not many bosses really need it off since they usually arent hard to get to anyway.

I think the best solution is to leave devestate as is, but lower mana cost, then give some class (i'd say giving it to mages would make it kind of dumb) that would give them an intelegence enhancement  and i still say Enlightenment would be a good name for it..and clerics could cast it cause making someone smarter isnt white magic bettering black magic, and i'd say they're the only reasonable class to cast it other than mages.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by alone on 07/12/03 at 21:24:44
What I am wondering is why Devastate has been changed so early to the release of the area. Why would it need to be changed now if the area won't be open for a few more months?
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Bill on 07/12/03 at 21:35:15
Maybe because it might need to be tweaked again?  :)
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by CKY on 07/13/03 at 00:14:03
Okay, I don't know if anyone has suggested this yet but I'm going to repost if not.

I think John (Milagros) should be able to restore his Devastate to 25 mp, the normal badass damage.

After that, I think the damage and mana use should be lowered. Making it a bit better than beam.

Why? Because John was the first devastater, and he therefore has more experience and would know how to make that one spell better, if you go with the role playing part of it.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by -Gaddy- on 07/13/03 at 02:01:47
ya know what...i agree with CKY.
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Bean on 07/13/03 at 08:16:25
Besides, hes had it a LOT longer than anyone else will possibly have it.


I still say there should be no area, and just an all mage mosh every month  ;)
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by Bill on 07/13/03 at 09:33:42
But then only members of the really big clans stand a chance a getting it.  :-/
Title: Re: Objective Comments on Devastate!!
Post by -Gaddy- on 07/13/03 at 20:29:24
A. Only members of really big clans stand a chance anyway, area would be frikin impossible.

B. I don't like the mosh idea cause if it is just an extremely hard area then it doesn't garantee people will get one each month because I don't think the area would be easy enough for people to go daylie, and i don't think even if they did go that they'd be able to make it to the boss, and kill it every day to get a .2% or less drop...


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