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Title: Hit and Run Post by Old School Freaks on 06/10/03 at 03:45:49 Hit and run. The cowards way of fighting. I`m not crying a bit so drop that arguement cause I`ve actually gotten pretty good at it thanks to a clannies suggestion of using a mage or druid to lead a party. But check this. In theory if you have 0 stamina you are tired and warn out no longer being able to move for a brief period of time. So how do you move from the square? I suggest that if a member of a party has 0 stamina and the party moves that he simply stay on that square. At which time he would have to catch back up with the party. Another option is to have a member of the party carry him. As often in the field of battle men an woman carry thier own off of the field or until they are strong enough to move on thier own. This however slows the party down. So my suggestion in regards to carrying a person would be to make the person who is doing the carrying use 2 stamina per square. This is just off of the top of my head so if anyone feels up to improving on it please feel free. As I see it now the game has become a game of hit and run. It is a very smart tactic and one I think should be aloud in the game but as it is currently set up it is a lil unrealistic in that a crit uses all hit strentgh/stamina and can still run like a wild man. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Despair on 06/10/03 at 05:07:04 http://www.nightmist-online.co.uk/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.pl?board=Suggestions2;action=display;num=1050725904;start=0#0 Asked for this a few weeks back and no one liked the idea :'( but I do like the if one party member isnt full on stam it slows party down idea ;D |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Insomnia on 06/10/03 at 06:56:43 Why not? Sounds realistic, and I'm up for whatever when it comes to makinh all these cowards fight again. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Old School Freaks on 06/10/03 at 15:19:35 Nice idea Despair. Sorry I wasn`t trying to steal it. I guess I need to pay attention and read more then Discussion and Clan Forum:) |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Stotic on 06/10/03 at 15:25:27 I know you're mostly talking about party hitting and running. But I use the tactic because I mostly solo with my thief. I usually try to come back with a 5 stam hit. What else to do when your facing 2-3 arches? |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Despair on 06/10/03 at 15:42:41 on 06/10/03 at 15:19:35, Old School Freaks wrote:
Dont worry about it :) . . . People mention that being in a party has benefits one being that you can be moved with no stam . . . isnt it benefit enough that you have other crits in the party to fight along side you and heal you . . . Also the theif mage/druid party is very over used now to the point where it is abused . . . Yeah it involves some skill in making your theives invis after they assassinate ect but its extremely hard to defend making it an unfair tactic to use |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Insomnia on 06/10/03 at 19:47:59 on 06/10/03 at 15:25:27, Stotic wrote:
Use a thief and a cleric and you can even kill 4 archies if you do well. I'm surprised to hear such an experienced player like you defending the 'tactic' that currently is destroying NM; people has even started leaving NM due to everyone using it all the time. Anyone can kill anyone doing hit and runs, and usually there is no way to stand up against it. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Medora on 06/11/03 at 03:07:15 Sure there is a way to stand up against that attack. When they hit and run, before they come back...be gone ;) |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Stotic on 06/11/03 at 05:05:36 I'm a rogue. I hunt alone. I lurk the shadows and take my shot at my target of opportunity. I strike then secede. Then I strike again from another unpredictable point. Until I see my opponent's blood on my dagger. As my rp states the hit and run tactic is justified, because frankly I don't bring alts because I like to lurk in the shadows as a rogue or a thief in nm sense. I don't go attacking with tons of alts. And also an experienced player such as me doesn't have time to lvl so exp lost stays lost. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Kazuya on 06/11/03 at 10:01:46 ways to stop it? macro the crits and hope u are lucky.. now about what u said about the party and stam and crap this would also slow down people who are training :-/ we wouldnt want to see that ;D |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Pile on 06/11/03 at 10:15:22 on 06/11/03 at 05:05:36, Stotic wrote:
If you don’t bring alts then how do you leave the square? If you simply wait for refresh of stamina then I wouldn’t include that in this discussion. In my opinion hit and runs are only hit and runs in this context, when the player is getting round the loss of stamina by taking advantage of the way the party movement works, as Momba stated. I like the idea of leaving the player behind, not sure on the carrying part :-/. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Old School Freaks on 06/11/03 at 12:59:44 on 06/11/03 at 10:01:46, Kazuya wrote:
I don't know that it is true for all players but myself and several others wait for some/all stam to return before moving to the next square/monster. It actually speeds training if you wait for full stam when training in the desert. I use thieves so a 3 stam hit averages about 100-120 pod where as if I wait the extra few seconds for the additional 2 stam my results are more then double thus killing the monster faster and using less mana/pots because they have less time to get a second attack off. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Insomnia on 06/11/03 at 13:26:43 on 06/11/03 at 10:01:46, Kazuya wrote:
That's what I'm doing. Unfortunately my computer and connection sucks, so I always lag at least 1-2 seconds before anything happens.. and by then - the cowards are gone. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Stotic on 06/11/03 at 15:24:37 Yea, I understand that which is why I'm confused on why ep attacked me . And now I'm crying. I guess I did mislead when I posted my own version of it in here. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Eternyte on 06/11/03 at 17:37:49 I think Jim's idea is cracking. Also it wouldnt affect people training anyway. When I train, if I am using alts. I lead with the main crit i'm trying to train, so they get first hit on the monsters. So after that crit (say a ranger) has killed the monster, he has no stamina to move anyway. So he stands still, then moves when he has stamina. If a members in your party has no stamina left after an attacking, then like if there were on their own, should be left behind. The idea of the leader using 2 stamina per movement is good also, becase there would still be a laboured movement, and running away would be difficult because only 2 squares could be moved until all stam is refreshed. Good ideas Jim. p.s. A 1 alt rule could be introduced? Which would you prefer. I personally would like an alt rule. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Kazuya on 06/11/03 at 19:13:53 well some people like me use their cleric to lead and having to wait for one crit to get the stam back is annoying when u trian alot of crits cuz u tend to make it a certain rythem on hiting the monsters and if u have to wait for one to get some stam the other wil have all their stam ruining the rythem u started on therefore being anoyed to keep looking at witch crit has stam |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Pile on 06/11/03 at 23:23:29 It’s not one of those petty “boo hoo” situations. Anybody can take 2-3 crappy lvl 28+ thieves and a druid/mage and basically kill any crits no matter how good. If its done right the party leader will be taken first so immediate running is not an option. By the time you have collected yourself and claimed, its game over. Or maybe you're just being sarcastic… or would that have been in giant glowing letters too? |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Kazuya on 06/12/03 at 01:57:18 LOL well said bean i for one do hit and runs on my thieves yeah big deal.. but i have seen many people on tr do teh same so plz the person who started this gd topic dont be so selfish and think of the noobs this will be affecting |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Old School Freaks on 06/12/03 at 02:31:15 This isn`t about feeling safe. This is about being realistic. I pk often. I use the hit and run tactic. I just see an unfair advantage to it that could use some tweaking. I don`t feel that it needs to be removed only don`t make it so simple. Further more. As for you Bean. I did a who on the crits listed below your post. Of the 4 listed you don`t even have 1,600 monster kills. On all the crits in your whole clan you only have 104 pks and have been pked 214 times. Looks like you would welcome all the help you can get. Oh but then I forgot there is the 10 level limit pk restriction. And since 9 out of the 12 crits in your clan are level 15 or below it's pretty safe for ya out there isn`t it. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Epic on 06/12/03 at 06:19:41 Im all for doing something to stop the hitting and running or atleast slow it down alittle....to many people hit and run constantly nowadays..devout, rick ect ect....anyhow everyone knows in the first somewhere and i sit there waiting for the person to fight and then find out they just use some stam then run away..but anyhow like i said im all for slowing down the hitting and running |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Insomnia on 06/12/03 at 12:58:30 on 06/11/03 at 23:15:39, Bean wrote:
Oh yea, that'd be great, wouldn't it! Everyone sitting at gates 24/7, noone will ever go south unless they are covert/invisible, just to check if there's anyone there. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Maltakano on 06/12/03 at 19:43:01 seems to me that you might want to use a druid and use it to cast vines stopping them running ok it might not stop you from dieing but it will get you a chance to fight back |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by dognapot on 06/12/03 at 20:21:50 guys if you just vary your training a bit and stop sitting and waiting for fights to arrive you won't be attacked like this so much. the people who i did hit and runs on the most were always the people training in the same remote locations using the same leaders, at the same time everyday. those folks were just asking for it. the other high risk group is the knuckleheads who wait outside of town for an unpurportional battle and bite off more than they can chew. once again, another suggestion lacking either a problem or a solution. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Epic on 06/13/03 at 01:09:20 Dognapot your very angry or negitive or something.. down with dognapot :P |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Oblivion on 06/13/03 at 03:49:53 on 06/12/03 at 01:45:32, Bean wrote:
Yeah very correct, I useually love sniping, even then I do not stand still, people attend to go after the sniper alot.. As for people complaining about this tactic. How is killing the enemy and not dieing yourself stupid and braveless? Personally, I rather see a 1 alt limit... |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Ashton on 06/13/03 at 04:08:26 on 06/13/03 at 01:34:41, Bean wrote:
okay seriously now...how often would a situation arise that this would be the solution, and how many people would carry a level 22 druid around for this reason alone... |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by dognapot on 06/13/03 at 04:44:46 seriously, i'm not trying to be negative here but there's very big flaws in this idea. 1. hit and runs are not something to retool the game about. 2. it's not a problem and ergo, cannot be fixed. 3. if it could somehow be a problem, the suggestion presented would not fix it because hit and runs can be just as effective even if you have to stick it out for 5 seconds. as long as the element of surprise can still be used there will still be 'nothing you can do about it'. if this whole hit and run thing still really gets your goat then please realize the real reason that this is so popular and common is the fact that just about everyone has earned themselves the ability to kill atleast one crit in less than 2 seconds using thier favorite combination of alts. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Epic on 06/13/03 at 21:44:58 Toying with ones stamina if they are hitting and running makes perfect sense...someone hits with 4 crits(happens all the time)then leads away with a mage/druid...well if the mage/druid is carrying 6 other crits maybe just slow them down a bit..they are carrying all that weight...SLOW EM DOWN! |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Pile on 06/13/03 at 22:20:20 I agree. And modifying party stamina so that it operates as individual stamina would hardly constitute “retooling” the game. In my opinion it is a problem and therefore can be fixed. It is not the element of surprise that is the problem; this is what thieves are all about. The problem is that 2+ thieves can kill a crit and instantly run away without you having a chance to counterattack. If this was how assassinate was meant to work then thieves would refresh stamina instantly, for good reasons its not. I’m not on my moral high horse or anything, I sometimes use this myself but I think it should be stopped to improve the game. The mage/druid has pretty much no purpose except to lead party, hardly constructive game play. What was that about a one alt limit… |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Sauruman on 06/13/03 at 22:37:55 Heh, the one alt rule would totally ruin Pacifists, Mages and Clerics. They train with other alts, the more the better. And if you've got a problem with pkers, find a way around it, just as pkers found a way to pk. Hell, if they use thier brain to kill you use your brain to fight back. Or, simply take a beating then hunt them down and make the game living hell for them from that point on. That'll make them stop, or give your more reasons to gloat. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Pile on 06/13/03 at 22:53:11 This isn’t the place but I can’t see how a one alt rule would ruin pacifists and from my uninformed perspective, I foresee it benefiting mages. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Pile on 06/13/03 at 23:05:34 Sounds good in theory. Someone who plays a thief well will already have looked over all of the characters in your party before they are attacked and developed a prioritised order to kill them, likely to be based primarily around healers or leaders. Chances are if you have the opportunity to cast vines then the key players in your party will already be dead. But yeah, if I was the one doing that its likely the druid would be a low priority, but having said that vines don't exactly take much to kill when your on 2+ high level thieves. And I don’t think an alt rule will be beneficial to pacifists, surely it would make no difference, they would be played identically either way. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Pile on 06/13/03 at 23:16:38 My apologies then, misinterpreted what you were implying. Looking over doesn’t make you visible in any of the classes that can effectively ‘hide’. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Pile on 06/13/03 at 23:21:37 …who happened to be in a forest (Sorry I’m going to find something that’s constructive to do now ::)) |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by dognapot on 06/14/03 at 03:25:04 just popped into my mind. no idea why i hadn't thought of this before. another reason why screwing with party stamina won't affect hit and runs is mages. and like pile pointed out, anyone worth thier spit in the area of pking has already scouted thier victims party and priortized. i usually go for leaders and healers first. i only ever used two thieves at the same time and can safely say that after those guys are out of the picture it's not hard to clean up as many as 6 fighting types. hell, i only needed to do a hit and run if the cleric wasn't dropping right away. what i'm trying to say is that messing with party stamina is just going to change the tactic a little bit. it'll still be used, except maybe now a mage will have the party macro'd for invis or everyone will just learn to use even more alts in a simultaneous attack. few people find it neccessary now to divide thier parties to focus on specific crits in other parties; they just go after one at a time. however, if it becomes neccessary to learn that skill in order to take out the trash, i know for certain most people here have nothing better to do than just that. now really, this stamina thing doesn't get at the heart of the issue. hit and runs don't happen simply because of the party stamina situation they happen because people can obliterate eachother in mere seconds. try again. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Epic on 06/14/03 at 06:34:20 Messing with the partys stamina makes perfect sense, like i said earlier if someones hitting and running put somethin in there that takes maybe a stam or make it so it takes amin for them to move because they are carrying all that weight, doing this will make it harder for people to hit and run and granted yeh maybe they will find away to do it still but i guarantee that hitting and running will be alittle harder to accomplish if the partys stamina is messed with. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Despair on 06/14/03 at 19:41:28 And if they fail and dont kill all the clerics and one casts vision or the mage fizzles they are sitting ducks Anything has gotta be better than the current system |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Maltakano on 06/14/03 at 20:51:21 :o |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Epic on 06/15/03 at 01:15:44 Beam its obvious your a silly newbie and havnt been involved in many things in the game but your posts make no sense and you just keep going against all the good points people make... And you say why dont we stop complaining? This is the "improving the game" area...its what you do here kid. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Pile on 06/15/03 at 02:37:23 Don’t think that I don’t appreciate your argument Dognapot. Personally however, I don’t agree with it. It is not the tactic that I have a problem with and I totally agree people will find the next easiest way to instantly kill others, but this doesn’t mean things don’t need to be fixed. My problem with the whole issue is that thieves or any classes with an all out attack are not meant to be able to move straight afterwards, hence their stamina is completely used up. I don’t think it is a problem using a mage for invis simply because there is a price. The mage has to pay mana, stamina and take risks to effectively achieve what can currently be done through a ‘loophole’ that ‘costs’ nothing. I am not complaining about all out thief attacks or any other sense of the term ‘hit and run’. There isn’t a heart of the issue, there is one problem and that’s it, nothing more nothing less. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Epic on 06/15/03 at 05:19:15 *cough* i played for about a year before reset so uh..yeh..but anyhow not going to change this whole topic but by all means get ahold of me in game |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by dognapot on 06/15/03 at 06:39:16 pile i can see how you'd come to that conclusion but hear me out. the only real downside of parties' stamina being the way it is now is that it accomadates hit and run tactics but we both know that changing it won't affect the hit and runs much at all. i just don't think it's neccessary to bother with changing it. it really won't make it harder or easier to break through people's defenses; it makes it different. so i think that since it doesn't directly address any issues it's not worth tinkering with. now i know some will say that it would only make sense and it's only proper but i'd have to reply, 'so would pants'. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Stotic on 06/15/03 at 06:50:07 Apparently the person who played longer clearly has a more valid argument... |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Pile on 06/15/03 at 11:57:29 I do totally appreciate your argument but I guess it just comes down to two opposing viewpoints. I still feel that it should be altered but then you are totally right by saying that it will not affect the hit and run approach to the game (even though I don’t have a problem with this). Anyways, I’ve said all I can on the issue and the pants statement takes the biscuit ;). I shall honourably retire to my semi-naked frolics in game. And to Bean, I can appreciate Epic’s reaction to your posts on this thread. In my personal opinion you did have that whole "stfu you lil whiners, I ‘m not open to what you got to say" thing going on. My initial reaction to your first post was one of annoyance; the 30 pt glowing letters just didn’t cut it. The statement about tickling some bottom with the whole druid vines thing didn’t go down too well either. Now I know I’m nobody to be bashing others posts and that’s not my motive, I’m just pointing out how I perceived your approach to the topic, since you asked (and I’m well aware I probably don’t have the whole fan club thing going for me). |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Bean on 06/15/03 at 20:27:00 Seems free speech is at a minimum in these forums, My bad for excersising my rights. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Pile on 06/15/03 at 20:35:52 Not about free speech. You said what you wanted, but you can’t make people like it or agree with it. My opinion of you changed later through the thread, I was just stating how I initially reacted since you asked. It’s a shame you removed your posts, I personally think if you believe what you’re saying you should stand by it, even if it disagrees with others. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Bean on 06/15/03 at 20:38:28 Oh i do, It just seems that no matter what I say now no-one can agree with it even if its a good point, JUST BECAUSE of my previous posts... its kinda disheartening... |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Old School Freaks on 06/15/03 at 21:06:54 on 06/15/03 at 20:27:00, Bean wrote:
Your excersising your right to free speech is more then welcomed, but it has been pointed out time and time again that a person need only express thier views on a topic once. You either agree or disagree. State the reason for your views and move on. This allows staff to get right to the point of the thread and see the views without having to sift through 3 pages of garbage because two/more players want to push thier views on others. Try thinking out what you might want to say inregards to your option and topic at hand. State it and move on. Jurian will fill up enough threads with useless post already we don`t need anymore. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Bean on 06/15/03 at 21:28:08 Wow... You say that as if I was the only person posting on this topic. How thoughtful of you |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by -Gaddy- on 06/17/03 at 07:16:41 on 06/11/03 at 23:23:29, Pile wrote:
our 2 crappy stated master thieves do that pretty well...usually..i enjoy it...it does piss some people off..but honestly there is nothing really wrong with it...it is the advantage a thief has...i dont see why the thieves come uncovert if they kill someone with other people in the square cause they are covert...and an assassination should be done secretly and not let you be seen...like what happens to monsters...if you were training and your crits get left behind some squares (some people are pretty fast and i could see them going from the rax to nm before the alts'd have stam) how do they catchup exactly? just magically appear? doesnt seem like that is realistic if realistic is what everyone is going for and it isnt just that they dont like how some people prefer to pk...why not take out pking if it is such a large problem if people use certain tactics to pk..i mean..zerkers can round anyone with a good round, rangers hit hard, fighters can sometimes do some real damage, clerics can duel usually, mages can hit hard, druids..i dunno, pallys can enhance the heck out of themselves, why shouldnt thieves be able to just hit and run...isnt that what a thief does? |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Despair on 06/18/03 at 23:23:01 Theives get the advantage of being able to covert them selves and then put all their energy into one fast assasinate . . . if they round someone they stay covert while they get their energy back . . . if they fail then their left vunerable to being attacked which makes it fair in my opinion . . . I dont see hit and run as a tactic, I see it as a bug being able to drag crits around that have no stamina by using another crit But whatever if so many people want to keep this in the game and staff agree with things being kept as they are then fair enough I guess |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Deval on 06/19/03 at 01:54:23 I agree, you cannot move without stamina for a reason, and thus, being able to be carried around without stamina is clearly 100% bloody stupid. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Issy on 06/19/03 at 06:15:15 This topic is very realistic, but on another note. The only reason the person with "0 stamina" is moving, (bit of a realistic manner) but because the party would be 'pushing' him to move... i know this is a game and blah blah blah, but you could think about it like that. Hit and run is more of a skill, other then a "newbs way of fighting." |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by -Gaddy- on 06/19/03 at 08:02:53 realize that all people with 0 stamina move when a party moves..not just thieves. |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Despair on 06/21/03 at 05:21:01 on 06/19/03 at 06:15:15, Issy wrote:
Whats skillful about running round on a mage/druid with a couple of theives . . . seeing a party macro'ing the party leader with your theives then *Assassinate* *Assassinate* run off before anyone gets the chance to do anything about it . . . It kinda reminds me of spawn camping in fps games its a lame way of fighting . . . And Gaddy your right its not just theives that can be dragged round which means any class can do hit and runs its just theives are the prefered class for this tactic as unless the hit and run is expected or the attacker lags out its basically undefendable . . . Can anyone say that the ability to be able to do hit and runs makes the game fair and balanced ??? Edit: Some people use even more theives and are able to take out more than one crit above was just an example |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Argus on 06/21/03 at 05:31:16 I kinda agree with finding a way to end hit and run. Don't get me wrong, I do it myself, but it seems like the only way to survive with most of nm covert or invising running around hitting and running. I rarely play my arches that are non-coverting or invising. This is because all that happens is people hit and run and kill a crit here...and there...so I get on my theives and I do the same to avoid being the victim. I miss those good old days when exp loss was no big deal at level 30 and you still did the same damage no matter how low your exp loss was. People actually fought in huge battles without worrying about hit and runs. Those were the good ol days :-/ |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Epic on 06/21/03 at 11:26:38 * thinks back Those were the days |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Insomnia on 06/21/03 at 17:31:09 * nods his head in agreement with Argus. Bring back the 'exp is useless at level 30' rule! :) |
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Title: Re: Hit and Run Post by Eternyte on 06/28/03 at 18:03:02 I still dont think that would cure the 'Hit and Runs' thought Gus. Although atleast there will be more massive battles. Yet still to many people running back 100 times after they die...but it's all in good fun. |
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