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(Message started by: Tender_Foot on 03/17/03 at 19:52:51)
Title: im wondring why certain areas have been changed.
Post by Tender_Foot on 03/17/03 at 19:52:51
im wondering why certain areas have been changed. i know for a fact swamps were changed, but they have seemed to change even more since i was there yesterday. The monsters seem to have gotten just a tad bit easier, but the gold is completely fowl. im wondering how a boss drops 6,000+ gold and then goes to this 'You got 3242 gold pieces.' And the heads only give 400 gold, turtles 200. This ammount of gold is quite rediculous in my opinion for how hard the monsters are (oooh, not saying they are very hard). It also seems as though that the Hydra Body has been changed to no longer spawn heads, maybe we were unlucky and it didnt spawn any for us to get that extra gold, but if it has changed why?

I know other areas in the game have changed as well, but i dont see the complete reason for changing this area, on the basis only me and draco honoris go there regularly, unless it was for that matter that we are going there regularly that it was changed.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by wonderful_nightmare on 03/17/03 at 19:58:51
i don't really care about swamp but i'm kinda pissed at changing captain wylsen :( i used to kill him easy with 12 alts now i can't kill him no more (i went with tevlok and his 4 alts and my 12 alts) and it took us ages to kill :(

i agree in asking the question why is this changed?
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Zephie on 03/17/03 at 20:02:13
I don't think captain was changed? I know certain areas of the map were changed mostly just squares being added on.  
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by wonderful_nightmare on 03/17/03 at 20:10:28
gah then did my crits get worse suddenly? and why is it then that captain sometimes heals and sometimes doesn't?
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Azrael on 03/17/03 at 20:27:48
Sometimes he likes to die and sometimes he doesn't, depends on how much depression he's going through.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Bishop on 03/17/03 at 20:53:25
I was curious why the swamp was changed too - but since I haven't been there in weeks, didn't feel it was appropriate for me to comment on the changes I haven't seen myself.

I know that the map didn't need changed (3 entrances stopped people from blocking off the area), the map was a reasonably small maze and had custom 'you can't go directions', and the monsters were quite challenging (but not too much so) imo.  I spend a great deal of time working on the balance and challenge of the area (although since clerics were changed to use less mana, the gold reduction may have been merited, but shouldn't have been reduced by more than 1/4).

I'm also surprised no one asked me for any information on the area - just jump in there and start changing it.  But, whatever, it's no longer my call...
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Bullitt on 03/17/03 at 21:35:46
Heads still respawn but the gold was halved(ish).
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Clayton on 03/17/03 at 23:20:47
Jahanna was changed....

Edit: After a little exploring I found that just the entrance to Jahanna was changed. Please tell me if I am wrong.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Amy on 03/18/03 at 00:05:36
I just want to know in what way this all.. especially the swamp changing.. has to do with improving of the game? there are areas not made to add or do whatever with.. why change a perfectly good area? unless, the problem was that not many could get through there.. (although, if they trained hard enough and brought a team it would have been fine). Sure glad I dont depend on the swamp alone for my gold intake. Just seems foolish to totally ruin an area that was done very well and made with alot of though.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by JLH on 03/18/03 at 00:32:33
i have added squares to the start of some areas to stop them overlapping with other areas. I have not deleted any or edited any monsters, i fixed a few map bugs too.
this is due to me making a world map (of which is nearly complete) with every area on it (think of a large piece of squared paper) to scale as best i could. this will help in future area development to avoid confusion when areas seem to be on top of other areas when they shouldn't be. (i know that a square has no 'real' size or anything, but it makes me happy this way).
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Clayton on 03/18/03 at 00:34:01
Wow, very nice. And thank you.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Tender_Foot on 03/18/03 at 01:04:07

on 03/18/03 at 00:32:33, JLH wrote:
i have added squares to the start of some areas to stop them overlapping with other areas. I have not deleted any or edited any monsters, i fixed a few map bugs too.
this is due to me making a world map (of which is nearly complete) with every area on it (think of a large piece of squared paper) to scale as best i could. this will help in future area development to avoid confusion when areas seem to be on top of other areas when they shouldn't be. (i know that a square has no 'real' size or anything, but it makes me happy this way).



Then who exactly thanged the gold drop rate? because i do know that thieves cannot get past the heads to steal from them. So that leads me to conclude that everything has been halved.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Pandilex on 03/18/03 at 01:22:08
I changed it, after watching the rate of gathering gold I decided that it was generating an insanely large amount. It was possible to gather a lot of money very quickly, so I made a few alterations.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Amy on 03/18/03 at 01:28:49
so are other areas that generate what is in your opinion an insane amount of gold (ie.. the barracks, johanna, even rose garden).. being changed too? Just curious. And since these are areas that we have been able to generate just as much gold or more, in just as much time even considered for modification? or does that depend on who is doing the gathering? .. just a curiosity from a NM player

(edited for typo)
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Pandilex on 03/18/03 at 01:42:27
Other areas do not generate as much.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Bullitt on 03/18/03 at 01:45:29
I think the key difference is the level restriction and the fact that a party of 2-3 lvl 20 thieves and a cleric can pretty much clean the area in less than 30 minutes. In my opinion 400 gold and then the boss drop of 3k is still a tidy amount considering the ease with which thieves and berserkers deal with the area.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Tender_Foot on 03/18/03 at 02:07:58
p[ersonnally, im there all the time, and on the basis only 2 of us regularly visit the area, im going to take this as a personaly blow to me and draco honoris pan. Now, i can easily go to RG and get 20 in 5 minutes with no trouble what-so-ever, but i dont see that area changing. And i use to have to pay the gold i got (20k in about 30 minutes) on getting all new pots and mana every 3 trips *that means i made about 40k every 3 trips) now if 40k for 90 minutes of training is rediculous, then a lot of aspects of this game need to be fixed.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Tender_Foot on 03/18/03 at 02:20:15
i would also like to point out that the wait for the monsters to respawn, is rediculously long, so even if a lot of gold is being made, it doesn't become to large of a sum. Where as in other areas, lime orc caves where there's an abundant source of monsters that arent to hard to kill, rg where the monsters are rediculously easy to kill for the gold they give an respawn relatively quickly, barracks which are small but insainly easy to kill and great exp for healers....why dont we go and change those also to make the game more fair?
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Clayton on 03/18/03 at 02:29:43
40k in 90 minutes is far from ridiculously good.
Actually, in my opinion, it is somwhat bad.. ::)
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Amy on 03/18/03 at 08:10:11
I do not believe it generates any more than any other area either. Mayhap is the people that are training hard that gather alot in one area that makes the swamps stand out. Who knows.. but does not seem quiet right.. oh well, wont hurt to make double trips through .. will just take a bit more time.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by wonderful_nightmare on 03/18/03 at 08:14:45
hmm i still wonder what hapenned to captain wylsen though :(
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Norinth on 03/18/03 at 13:28:36
I didn't go often to swamp, only when I was with a few friends on training trips. Now I don't think it's actually worth it. Instead of reducing gold, why don't you make monsters harder? And why don't you ask the creator of such area before you change it? Changing squares does not affect the area, but changing monsters?

If we compare swamp to RG... RG gives a player much more gold in less time. At least an Hatchling is hard to kill with a torch. And takes long. I used to get 20k in 30 minutes or so(RG) with a level 23 fighter and a level 22 paladin.

And Barracks... Clerics heal for 100 (level 27). Have 4 stamina and 3 stamina every 10 seconds (not sure). A demonic soldier dies after a few seconds! And rangers also rock in there. 150 gold x a party of 5 rangers/clerics x 20 minutes there = a lot more than in swamp.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by JLH on 03/18/03 at 14:25:23
gold is one thing, but with a torch, doing 4 times as much damage on everything 'hydra', you are gaining xp 4 times as fast.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Valentine on 03/19/03 at 15:42:44

on 03/18/03 at 14:25:23, JLH wrote:
gold is one thing, but with a torch, doing 4 times as much damage on everything 'hydra', you are gaining xp 4 times as fast.

I just want to point that the base damage of the torch is VERY low (4), meaning its only usefulness is against the hydra creatures, mosquitos, and vines. The area was designed with the use of the torch in mind--hence the high hitpoints, damage, and summoning the hydra is blessed with.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Bishop on 03/19/03 at 15:53:05
Not that my opinion was asked; but I don't feel right not saying anything.  Ignore it if you like.

The only problem with the area (as it 'was') is the character classes that have an attack that does massive damage in one hit (assassinate, berserk, and maybe rapid fire).  Besides that, it was all perfect - the area is dangerous (very challenging) and without those classes, even the gold was not over-the-top.  Simply class restricting it would fix any problem with it.

But, I highly doubt gold/exp was the real reason it was changed anyway.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Valentine on 03/19/03 at 16:00:19
Just pointing out...the only "crazy" damage caused may be with the thief's assassinate using a torch (don't know enough about berserk to comment on that), in which case simply disallowing thieves from using the torch would solve that problem.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by wonderful_nightmare on 03/19/03 at 16:03:56
berserk does more damage then assassinate
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Bishop on 03/19/03 at 16:04:25
right, and rapid fire can't be done without a bow.  Although the torch is (or intended to be) a key also.  

Without being able to class restrict the torch, that leaves Thieves and Berserkers.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Pile on 03/19/03 at 18:44:52
Since the basis of the high damage is a fire I think blast should also receive a considerable attack bonus on these same monsters. I guess it’s not strictly the same but even though magical, I think a fireball would technically do the same.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Bishop on 03/19/03 at 18:54:18
Spells are worked differently - I wanted to do it that way, but never found a reasonable way to adjust the spells as such.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Crusher2 on 03/19/03 at 23:45:06
if you take the same period of time to go through the area, we discovered the swamp was comparable, even slightly lower, than some of the other areas we were training in. It is just that the xp/gold was concentrated on the hydra family. This seemed to me to make sense with the story line.

In other areas, no, the gold isn't as high on a single creature, but in the course of the same training period, you make out far better in other areas.

As for the torch doing the damage? Um, no. That's ridiculous. A hydra hatchling yields the same number of experience points regardless of what you kill it with. It is just related to the speed at which you kill it. It isn't rocket science. Do the math.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Pile on 03/20/03 at 00:33:25
Rather a literal and pointless way to play it. In a game where the major constraint is time the amount of damage per hit, and therefore speed at which experience is gained, is a key element. Considered a general aim by most is the advancement of their character through gaining experience points, killing a specific monster is just an indirect outcome of this. The whole playability of the game is hinged on the maximum potential speed at which you can gain experience, and if this isn’t balanced, neither is the game.

So while you technically get the same experience, it is this speed at which it can be achieved that it would seem some people are objecting to. After all there isn’t a set amount of times you can kill a specific monster and the swamps are big enough to provide a continual supply of clicking.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Tender_Foot on 03/20/03 at 07:38:52

on 03/20/03 at 00:33:25, Pile wrote:
Rather a literal and pointless way to play it. In a game where the major constraint is time the amount of damage per hit, and therefore speed at which experience is gained, is a key element. Considered a general aim by most is the advancement of their character through gaining experience points, killing a specific monster is just an indirect outcome of this. The whole playability of the game is hinged on the maximum potential speed at which you can gain experience, and if this isn’t balanced, neither is the game.

So while you technically get the same experience, it is this speed at which it can be achieved that it would seem some people are objecting to. After all there isn’t a set amount of times you can kill a specific monster and the swamps are big enough to provide a continual supply of clicking.




blah blah blah blah, thats what i got out of that. now, because of the rediculously low respawn rate for the monsters in that area *i do believe 5 minutes for masquito swarms and hydra hatchlings and an hours for heads and hydra body* the speed isnt to high
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Pile on 03/20/03 at 11:45:42
I well reframe from telling you what I got out of that. The point is there is always something to be killing with 4 times the speed of normal experience gain. Yes the boss takes a while to respawn but it would be hardly balanced if it were there all the time. So you can basically stick it out in the area and aimlessly wonder around never really running out of monsters to kill, and then even go back to the boss every hour and kill it again. So the overall experience gain is in fact massively quicker than training on ‘normal’ monsters, I should know I train there myself. So what exactly is it you’re whining about know, u want a permanent boss and instant respawns?
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Crusher2 on 03/20/03 at 12:48:42
4 times the speed of normal experience gain? Do you actually go to the swamp?????
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Norinth on 03/20/03 at 13:07:25
To go to the swamp (and survive) one must have a decent ammount of (good) crits and specially a decent cleric. And in case nobody noticed only a few players go to swamp. The swamp was fine. (not complaining about the square changes)
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Tender_Foot on 03/20/03 at 14:07:04
i just wrote up a big explanation to prove everything you just said wrong in your posts. ill make this simple, things taking 10 minutes to respawn, means you can easily whipe out an area and sit with nuthing to do.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Tender_Foot on 03/20/03 at 14:09:16
i would also like to point out that the hydra hatchlings didnt get changed....thats a bit odd when almost every tr member i see in there *and im in there a lot* only kill the hydra hatchlings....i find a bit odd that draco honoris kill the hydra body and head all the time, along with me, and those get changed, but tr members kill hatchlings a lot and those dont get changed.

Edit: i would also like to point out the fact that its rediculous you can kill 7 hatchlings and get more gold from killing the body, when the body is a lot harder to kill. and with the hydra thorn being a worthless item......
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Insomnia on 03/20/03 at 14:57:45

on 03/20/03 at 14:09:16, Tender_Foot wrote:
i would also like to point out that the hydra hatchlings didnt get changed....thats a bit odd when almost every tr member i see in there *and im in there a lot* only kill the hydra hatchlings....i find a bit odd that draco honoris kill the hydra body and head all the time, along with me, and those get changed, but tr members kill hatchlings a lot and those dont get changed.

I just have to ask, is this a serious post or are you just trying to make fun of all those pathetic newbies who thinks that staff is corrupted and want TR to get everything?
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Pile on 03/20/03 at 14:57:52
 I am well aware the speed of experience gain is dramatically increased, but when I said 4 times I am simply working of JLH said since I figured he might know what he was talking about. 1 hit point of damage yields 56 experience points from a hatchling and so a hit of 400 or more from 3 stamina would, for my character, be about 4 times what is possible with a ‘normal’ weapon on ‘normal’ monsters. And yes I frequently train in the swamps, I use a cleric 2 thieves and a berserker and never run out of things to kill. I also notice the spawn time has gone from 5 minutes to 10 minutes.

 Tender_Foot, if this weren’t a forum where we all played nice, I would call you a cretin. The body is a boss for a level 25 and under area, 3k is good, you clearly don’t understand the point of balance in this game. The purpose of the boss is for the story and the item it drops, the fact that it limited in its use is a problem in itself, not a reason to make a massive gold drop. I haven’t done a lot of other boss killing in a long time so can someone point out how much some of the other bosses drop, and the increased difficulty in killing them, demonic general and such forth…

You are simply requesting the swamps be tailored to your personal needs so you can gain experience and gold as you see fit, in a potentially unbalanced manner.

Vote Tender_Foot for sysop.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Bishop on 03/20/03 at 15:04:39
1 - There's no such thing as a 5 min. spawn time.

2 - Try running the swamp without a thief or berserker, tell me how easy/beneficial it is.  I'd wager, unless you have a party of 10 or more characters, you spend more gold on mana than you make.  Seriously, go without either of those classes, see how you like it.

3 - I doubt anyone is trying to get the area catered to their personaly interests (besides what's already been done); the point is, the changes made probably wheren't the best changes that could (should imo) have been made.
Title: Re: im wondring why certain areas have been change
Post by Tender_Foot on 03/21/03 at 02:51:40
i was playing about the swamp being tailored to tr interests, but i do find it odd that hatclings give more then heads.


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