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Title: Mage Observation!! Post by Eternyte on 03/10/03 at 12:04:57 Ok recently myself and numerous other mage users have posted about the amount of times that mages fizzle, get resisted, counter spelled, and get partially resisted Ok you could argue that mages are the most reliable class, but it seems to be that the word "Luck" doesnt play much part in it. Quite regularly I have done round of no damage what to ever, and lets face it....would an expert magic users ever really get resisted, or fizzle. I think not. More and more classes are becoming able to take on mages, even with Aura casted. For example Paladins and Clerics can rip a mage apart without trying to hard. Especially when they heal for more then beam does to them, and uses less stamina (per round of dmg, per that of heal) and mp....and they fizzle a lot less, and how often do you see a heal resisted. Mages seem to have too many variables in their spell casting in recent times. With the recent introduction of Berserkers, them to with no armor have the upper hand on mages. For instance...an Arch gnome mage would beam an Arch dwarf Zerk for about 53, however the zerk has 500hp, and apparently Smite ignores armor class. Even so the zerk's hp is double that of the mages, which makes them yet another nemesis. You could say yes with 22 dex and 130ac, Rangers, Fighters and Druids miss Mages a lot. However, with Clerics stat enhances they pretty much take mages apart also. Mages dont get any enhancers that boost their damage. I for one am eagerly awaiting Devastate, but I feel it has been a very long time in coming, in comparison with Divine Restoration, which has been out for many months now. Yes perhaps I am a main mage user, and perhaps I wish for mages to have the upper hand, but that is the way it should be, and the way it always has been. For the people who dont own mages I will try to enlighten you as to why you dont have one. 1. They are very difficult to level, perhaps not to much at lvl 25+, but until then they take a long time. 2. They cost a lot to train, buying enough mana, and pots to sustain them until you reach a high level costs you fortune. 3. Maybe now because other classes seem to have the upper hand over them, people no longer need mages, except maybe for vortex and invis. I havent thought about how I would fix this problem, but maybe a lower cost of mana for spells. Or a lower resist/counter spell/fizzle rate. Maybe spells could vary from class to class, as well as wisdom (if its possible), e.g. Berserker with 18 wis gets Beam for 70, whereas a Fighter with 18 wis gets beamed for 55, or something along those lines. Maybe even spells to increase intelligence and wisdom, to increase defence and offense. Please post your opinions, but preferably if you have the use of a high level mage that you use regularly, so you know what your talking about, and not making subjective comments because you feel your only level 30 crit should be the best. Thanks!! ;D |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Odin on 03/10/03 at 12:49:59 Good post. There is nothing more i can really add to that, i agree with you 100% (even discussed some of it with you) and can only give my stamp of approval. For those who may be thinking, "Eternyte is only out to better his own class", you are very wrong. He has an arch Ranger, Thief, Paladin and Mage (that i know of). He has been playing the game for around 2 years now (i think) and has posted suggestions for each and every class. If there's anyone who knows balance, it's him. |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Silverwizard on 03/10/03 at 15:05:36 I am in agreement with this post but would like to say HOW THE HECK DO YOU GET TO LVL 25 TO GET BEAM. I mean I am pked almost 2x/day wich translates to More xp lost than gained. So I am amazed that I can get to lvl 22. |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Insomnia on 03/10/03 at 19:04:38 1. Mana costs needs to be reduced. (!) 2. Devastate would be a great addition to mages and they'd not become too 'powerful' compared to other classes with it. 3. Stats has to make a bigger difference to spell damage/resisting. +1 int today deals about 1 more dmg (if I'm not completely wrong, I remember JLH telling me it was mainly based on level and the intelligence stat made almost no difference). |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by newb on 03/10/03 at 19:34:22 I was fighting Eternyte with Newb yesterday. With aop he kicked I disagree, but then again, pikes aren't so great for busting through 100+ armor. Even though Newb has 19 wis, he was still getting hit for good amounts, regularly 40-50. I resisted alot due to my high wis and he did fizzle more than what would seem normal. If a mage casts haste on himself, he can very well win the battle easily. I don't think devestate should be put in. old_fart hit me regularly for 80 even with 19 wis. He'd also use haste so I got wasted every other time we met up. |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Alicia on 03/10/03 at 19:49:54 The beam/aop seems ok for higher levels what mages need is a lower level spell, not a more powerful beam (devestate) An attacking spell at lvl10 and making blast,flame and shock hit harder and cost less Also spear is useless, if you get hit at a low level, you drop. You would need 150 armour to absorb damage with mages having such low hp. |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Deval on 03/10/03 at 21:49:46 Yeh Eternyte does quite the summary. I'll admit I'm no mage user, I don't have the skills to level a mage, but for over a year now I have had to listen to Odin's complaining ;) Regarding damage done, a 30 fighter vs a mage, I feel, tilts towards the mages side, having a higher dexterity, better armour, and better damage (this varies). BUT An interesting development is the Druid. Now I love druids, I got one to 27 before the druid update, and I still think they are kicken, but I was cruisin round the barracks camouflaged, and saw Wylow, a level 30 archmaster mage. Now I dunno if he had AoP on or not, but I busted outta camo, hit him one, slapped on stoneform and gaeas blessing, then morphed and carried on attacking. He dropped in the second round of attack. Now perhaps I got very lucky, but a level 30 mage should not be able to be 2 rounded by a level 27 druid. Now in no way am I trying to imply druids are overpowered, they are not, so don't even try to pick up on that little thread. What I find ridiculous is beserkers, and how hideously overpowered they are, I've seen low 20's beserkers taking out Archmaster anythings. Now given the ability to ignore armour, a mage can be clicked by a zerk no worres. Something of a barbaric nature, in my belief, would have a very low magic resistance, and therefore have his resistance to magic modified to suit the class, not race, but class, dunno how it would be done, but it's just not right. I'm aware that people are now going to start discussing the Orc and its vulnerability to magic and it's suitability for a beserker, but fact of the matter is, Orc just doesn't cut it. With a dex of 16, and a wis of somewhere around the same number, it leaves alot to be desired when compared to the supierior statistics of the Dwarven beserker... and I'm totally off topic. Mages need something, not devestate (which sadly I know will come), just something. For the time, and the money, that is spent training a Mage, they certainly deserve a little higher place on the podium, rather than dwindling off into non existance due lacking a certain edge and vulnerability to overpowered classes such as the beserker. |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Odin on 03/10/03 at 22:31:04 on 03/10/03 at 19:49:54, Alicia wrote:
Alica, your missing the point. Mages are not meant to be easy to train, If anything they should be the hardest out of all the classes. The general rule is that the harder the class is to train, the better it is at later levels. Newb, "Good amounts of 40-50" What? Thats nothing compared to what other classes can do, and don't say "Well fighters miss and hit armor" because a mage now gets resisted, partially resisted and fizzles. |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Alicia on 03/10/03 at 23:27:23 heres what id say about classes... Fighter - easy to train, good at all levels Zerker - even easier to train, better at low levels due to all abilities been availible from start (unlike ranger) Ranger - harder to train, very good at high levels, useless until l23 Cleric/Paladin - At l1-17 pallys are easier coz of better heal, at 18-22 clerics with aid are better, at 23 onwards pallys get justice blade, making them about equal. These classes are always useful due to healing. Thief - Can be trained to l20 in a coupla hours, but harder after that.Gets more powerful after each level, and can often round low-hp classes of same level. Mage - Very hard to train, but at l25 they can get the best attack in the game for next to nothing Druid - d**n near impossible to train past l15. Dont personally know anyone with a higher druid than this, so cant comment on the power at higher levels (although the druid update will help this) |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Eternyte on 03/11/03 at 00:07:26 on 03/10/03 at 12:04:57, Eternyte wrote:
Being the person with no life I am, I did a /who on all your listed crits. Highest mage of yours is a journeyman. Care to enlighten me as to your high level mage, so you can have an objective comment? |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Deval on 03/11/03 at 00:09:09 on 03/10/03 at 23:27:23, Alicia wrote:
I know of many now, I personally have a level 27 one, which I trained to that level before the reset, then of course there is Jango, Zero and Furion |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Alicia on 03/11/03 at 00:26:30 I know a couple of people ingame who have experts, and someone posted quite a while back the average amount of damage a full round of each classes best attack did, which is where i got this information from. And yes, my highest mage is a journeyman. I cant train mages for s**t |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Proteus on 03/11/03 at 00:42:43 I can also agree with the vary large failure rate of beam. Sometimes out of 8 stamina I still dont get a beam through, and am almost out of mana at that point also.. With resists, partial resists, fizzles, counter spells and the fact we get to carry less pots due to needing to carry mana it makes it almost impossible for mages to win moshes. In addition mages have low HP which isnt a bad thing, but with all the attacks that can bypass armour it makes mages very susceptible to the classes with those kind of attacks. Now with clerics and paladins being able to heal a mage out of mana, and druids with a spell basically as powerfull as beam but that costs less mana and can be obtained at a lower lvl. In combination with there heal spell and armour spells and there wide variaty of other spells and abilities it makes mages totally obsolete. |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Deval on 03/11/03 at 01:20:42 I concur, Druids offensive spells should not be so strong. |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by sugah on 03/11/03 at 01:25:18 For those of you who say mages wont be over powered with devastate are wrong. I am the only one with devastate and has the experience using it. When you can hit for hi 80's 17 wis, or mid 70's 20 wis, thats alot of damage. I can round anyclass except dwarfs and berserkers if i hit all 5 times. If devastate is made available on a wide scale mages will dominate i garuntee it. Now that I think about it, a half orc wis is only 14 i think, so i will do over 100 with each devastate, which means i could round them as well. Coming out of invis and poppin any crit will kill them, whether it be cleric or not, simply not enough time to heal. Trust me when I say devastate just isnt fair to other crits... What I do propose like someone above mentioned, that each class has its own way magic effects it, on top of wisdom. Dwarfs would be more apt to be hit harder my magic, and on the other end of the spectrum gnomes would resist more then any other class, and figure out all the ones in between....and then take wis into account on a per class basis. |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Tender_Foot on 03/11/03 at 02:32:40 on 03/11/03 at 01:25:18, sugah wrote:
i think they do need to hit for more damage though, not devestate damage, but my lvl 25 pally was getting hit for 80+ damage by subzero the other day, i have never been hit for more then 60 by a mage. now devestate is a little rediculous, but what should happen is lower lvl's mana get bumped up a little bit, mana for spells reduced a little, damage bumped up a little bit for them, and classes be hit for class dependent damage, would be very nice. |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Odin on 03/11/03 at 09:24:40 Sugah, it just sounds like you want devastate all for yourself.(which is perfectly fine) But if it isn't fair, i suppose it should be removed from your mage, right? I dont see anyone saying devastate has to stay the same? I've played this game for a long time now, and it wouldn't be the first time they have 'tweaked' something before. Reduce the damage it inflicts, problem solved. |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by sugah on 03/11/03 at 10:54:48 lol its not that i want to keep it for myself. I would have no problem if a few other mages were given devastate, but to make it available on a wide scale would over power mages as a class. As it is now, they are not. Devastate does not need to be changed, its perfect the way it is, lowering it would defeat the purpose. As the spell says, chances of meeting a mage with devastate are slim, and it needs to stay this way. |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Deval on 03/11/03 at 22:16:44 I agree that Devestate is not the answer, at least not with the damage that it deals. If the spell could be edited to reduce damage a bit, and also have an added longer lasting effect, could possibly level out the spell. Possibly being hit by a beam causing confusion? (Confusion would basically mean a single round of drunk, or which may only last for 1 or 2 stamina) |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Eternyte on 03/11/03 at 22:35:44 How about Devastate being made into a Rapid Beam + 10% damage. or Maybe even old Necromancer spell, like 50 damage to everyone on a square covert and invis'd. No resists, no fizzles, no partial hits, no counterspells. |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by sugah on 03/12/03 at 01:08:57 devastate is already a rapid beam...when your invis and got someone macroed theres nothing they can do, its like an assassinate. As far as having it do damage to multiple people on a square, whats the point? Devastate is fine the way it is, nothing needs to be changed about it. But like every other questy out there, BoS, Xmas Blade, Inqu' Ring, Ruby Ring, etc, these items are limited in number, as should devastate be...its just another questy, just so happens this is a spell. |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Eternyte on 03/12/03 at 04:23:36 Well if it's like an Assassinate maybe it should be lowered, because as people have said only assassinate should be able to take out players with 1 round. As for Devastate being a quest items, perhaps your right. Maybe devastate should be a quest item. Although..... Since no quest was run for it, maybe it should be removed from Solidad, and given to the winner of a quest set up by the newly founded Quest Team? |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by sugah on 03/12/03 at 09:00:30 As should several RotW that were given in the same manner, and i believe a ruby ring...? |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Eternyte on 03/12/03 at 15:45:05 I agree totally with that, because people should earn what they have. Not be the lucky person to pick up an item the fastest. However the people with these Quest Items, would obviously argue against this, because they would want to keep the items they have. Items like Inqy Ring, Sythos, Witches Gloves, Witches Hat, and Xmas items have been won via quests. Others however have not, but I cant honestly see it happening. |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Valentine on 03/12/03 at 15:57:36 Going back to the beginning of the post, I believe the biggest problem for mages is mana cost. The second biggest problem is the weak spell (Shock) you are stuck with until level 15. I can't even imagine trying to level a mage as a first character. It's tedious enough with high-level alts assisting with heals and purchasing mana. There is no way my low-level mage could afford to buy her own mana. |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Necros on 03/12/03 at 16:35:13 Last thing i heard from pandilex when i was testing something, Mages will be given devastate but tweaked, So they wont dominate. Just thought id add this. |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by sugah on 03/12/03 at 22:11:43 horse nuts... |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Eternyte on 03/13/03 at 01:40:39 You say that as though you didnt really want that to happen John. After saying mages would own with Devastate if it's being tweaked they wont own as much. Good thing too if it bring another spell apart from Beam. |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Deval on 03/13/03 at 05:09:15 on 03/12/03 at 22:11:43, sugah wrote:
* drools |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Silex on 11/26/03 at 00:24:05 I still think the problem here lies in the fact that people solo mages trying to take on others who are spelled up on 3-5 alts or more. Try taking an actual party into a fight instead of the way people solo...you wouldnt see any thief do much to a party of 3 on its own, especially w/o any spells to make it hit harder and more often. I would think that people could see a mage being a very very powerful crit, especially with how hard they are to train and keep alive when they dont have AoP on, but other crits would be a lot like that if they didnt have clerics with them healing and spelling. I know everyone gets pissed about hit and runs, i personally would rather not deal with a party of mages where they each hit then have another one invis them...and if there were to be more with devestate i know for sure that people would simply take it south with another crit and do hit and runs like they do with a set of 2-5 thieves, just macro 1 crit, take it out and run off...i thought everyone had agreed that that was a really gay tactic..but it is all i see anymore sitting on a cleric and stuff out of town. Peace, Gaddy |
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Title: Re: Mage Observation!! Post by Sera on 11/26/03 at 01:58:47 Why was this post dug back up after ..um... over 8 months? |
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